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Red Tent
The Red Tent
To: Book Clique
Subject: THE RED TENT
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:10:35 -0500
Everyone,
Reading historical fiction is a unique experience. Most people choose the
book because they know at least a little about the subject and like the
"fill in the blanks" aspect of the story. However, if you know alot about
the subject you might find that you just can't seperate yourself enough to
enjoy the author's version of the story.
How did knowing or not knowing the Bible's version of the events in The Red
Tent affect your reading of this novel?
Date: 11/12/2001
Subject: Re: RED TENT
My knowledge of the Bible's version of the events was extremely limited.
Some of the names rang a familiar bell, but that was about it. I think this
probably helped me be able to become totally immersed in Dinah's story. I
just enjoyed the story, without worrying about what was real and what wasn't.
An interesting note though. After enjoying the book so much, I did go back
to my Bible and read up. Part of this was because of curiosity, part for
research to lead a book group discussion on the book. Having read Red Tent
made the bible passages feel SO real. Anita Diamant did something for me
that none of my spiritual leaders have been able to do! I am very grateful
for that.
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:14:57 -0500
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: Re: Bible comes alive
>An interesting note though. After enjoying the book so much, I did go back
>to my Bible and read up. Part of this was because of curiosity, part for
>research to lead a book group discussion on the book. Having read Red Tent
>made the bible passages feel SO real. Anita Diamant did something for me
>that none of my spiritual leaders have been able to do! I am very grateful
>for that.
I hadn't planned on reading this book, but this message is certainly making
me rethink that plan. Thanks!
Along the same lines, though probably with a very different focus,
Madeleine L'Engle's book "Many Waters" tells the story of Noah through the
eyes of modern day kids who accidentally travel back in time. It's almost
definitely a less serious book, but I thought it was fascinating--it made
me want to find out more about the seraphim, the nephilim, etc.
--Ian
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:23:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: Red Tent
I feel silly now for having to remind myself that this is not a historical
novel...rather historical fiction. Once I could squeeze the word
"fiction" into my brain, I very much enjoyed the book. The agony was the
historical vs historical fiction.
We could learn much from the close relationships of the women. I also
took forever to figure out why we did not hear much about the men. Duh.
I feel as though I forgot every tiny bit of info learned about that
culture and time.
Yes, I probably ought to go back and read the beginning again with my
unbiased view. Love to read about women gaining their independence/
confidence in who they are/want to be.
I had trouble with Dinah willing going to bed with her future husband
without hesitation, without fearing the consequence,etc. The male
dominated society ought to have spurred many thoughts before the action.
What do you think?
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:02:42
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: Red Tent
Hi everyone,
I read this quite a time ago. I enjoyed the book very much. I have read a
lot of historical fiction. Usually I enjoy it because it gives a different
perspective to the story. A student asked me about a fiction (historical)
book she was reading. She wanted to know how they knew what the people
said to each other from back then. So we discussed the fact that that
was what fiction part of the genre meant. They were about historical
figures and the author was writing in some details that were fictional.
So as to the Red Tent, I knew some of the story, and thoroughly enjoyed
the insights that the author gave us. The story was enlightening as to
the tents and relating this to some of the native American stories I have
read about the women.
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:48:15 -0500
From: Moderator
Subject: Re: Red Tent
Everyone,
What do the rest of you think. Do think that Dinah was likely to have been
so impulsive considering that time period and climate that she lived in?
>I had trouble with Dinah willing going to bed with her future husband
>without hesitation, without fearing the consequence,etc. The male
>dominated society ought to have spurred many thoughts before the action.
>What do you think?
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:09:29 EST
From: BkFun999@aol.com
Subject: Re: Red Tent
It didn't surprise me at all that Dinah was such a willing sexual partner.
Her only true influences were her mother and aunts. The "men" in her family
rarely gave her the time of day, so had little chance to influence her. I do
think that her aunts and mother probably lived a fairly sheltered life by
sharing the same husband, one who was a considerate sexual partner.
From: Bookclique
Subject: Red Tent
Everyone,
Since we haven't heard from anyone in a while I'll throw out a question.
Who was your favorite character and why?
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:00:23 EST
From: BkFun999@aol.com
Subject: Re: Red Tent
My favorite character, most definitely, was Dinah's second husband. He
brought such simplicity and contentment to her life. After so much pain and
struggle, it was such a relief for her to have someone in her life that was
so steady and warm.
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:57:33 -0500
From: "Blackmon, Samantha"
Subject: RE: Red Tent
Wow, this is a difficult question because I felt a connection to all of the
mothers in the novel. I would have to say that Zilpah was my favorite of the
sister/mothers. She was, to me, the strongest of the sister/mothers. I could
appreciate her independence and her connection to the earth. It was she who
fought hardest to hang on to the religion of her family rather than simply
abandoning it for the religion on "Jacob's father". Zilpah seemed less of an
unwilling/unwitting pawn in Jacob's love pentagon than some of the other
sister/mothers, rather than being used in the ways that the others were,
Zilpah seemed to use Jacob for her purpose, procreation. Which as a side
note caused a bit of a problem for me as a feminist reader. This could also
be construed to mean that perhaps Zilpah thought that part of her
duty/obligation/purpose as a woman was to bear children. But I digress. I
look forward to hearing replies.
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:57:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: Red Tent
OH, yes! Isn't it wonderful when you find someone at peace with self?
Confidence and peace. Your defenses melt away and you can take a peek at
yourself.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Book Clique wrote:
> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:00:23 EST
> From: BkFun999@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Red Tent
>
> My favorite character, most definitely, was Dinah's second husband. He
> brought such simplicity and contentment to her life. After so much pain and
> struggle, it was such a relief for her to have someone in her life that was
> so steady and warm.
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:55:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: Red Tent
I enjoyed reading about the young characters...especially about Joseph and
Dinah's relationship. Something fun about it.
Date: 12/04/2001
Subject: Rate Red Tent
Thank you all who joined in our discussion of The Red Tent. We had a lively
exchange of thoughts and opinons. Please take a few moments and rate this
book 1(lowest) to five(highest).
Thanks Again!
Sherri McGlothlin
Reference Librarian
Tippecanoe County Public Library
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:16:47 -0500 (EST)
From: kjthomps@purdue.edu
Subject: Re: rate red tent
I would give it a 2. There were some inaccuracies that
could have been corrected. She did tell an interesting
story though.
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:33:28 EST
From: BkFun999@aol.com
Subject: Re: rate red tent
Definitely a very strong 5. One of the best books I've read in quite some
time. It was a refreshing and fascinating way of looking at a story that has
been available for ages and ages. I hear the author's second book doesn't
even come close to this one unfortunately. But then, I think that would be
very difficult to do.
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:09:55
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: rate red tent
I would rate this a 4. When I read it first, I gave it to a friend to read and
she enjoyed it also. I looked at the author's next book too and I'm not sure I
would like it either, but then it looked like she had a different range of topics.
Anyway I certainly appreciated her looks at this story.
back to top
At Home in Mitford
Date: May 06 2001 10:32:20 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
I hope you have all started reading. I began re-reading outside duringthe lovely
warm weather in Lafayette, Indiana.So here's two initial questions to launch our
discussion: "What drew you to this book?" "What has kept/is keeping you reading?
"Let's chat!
Date: May 08 2001 16:11:55 EDT
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I just love the "homey-ness" of the narrative. I can see the pastoralstudy, the
small town, and the dog slurping faces and hands. What awonderful descriptive
style!
Date: May 10 2001 10:41:35 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At home in Mitford
Talk is cheap! (In fact, it's even free, here), so please keep theconversation
going.What drew me to the Mitford stories was my familiarity with Episcopalparishes.
I often like to read in "fiction", something I think I knowabout in fact, so you
will often find me reading mysteries aboutlibrarians or art museum folks, or
newspaper people (all careers withwhich I have some familiarity).So my next suggestion
for your musings is: "Are there any REAL Mitfordsout there? What makes them attractive?
Are there any elements of thesetting/personalities where you live?"After some responses,
we'll have Jan Karon weigh in with her thoughts onMitford itself.Enjoy
Date: May 10 2001 11:45:48 EDT
From: Beth397@aol.com
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
Actually, speaking of the Episcopal church aspect... When I started, I missedthat
it was Episcopalian... I originally thought it was Catholic. So when theBishop
started talking about his wife, I was really confused! A little later Icaught the
refernce to the Episcopal church and felt much better! As for if there are really
any Mitfords out there... I'm not too sure. I'venever lived in a small town. Quite
frankly, I don't think I ever really wantto. I think a town like Mitford would be
great to visit on my way to anotherdestination, but I wouldn't be happy living there.
I do love reading about it,though. The people I've read about so far really love
living in a small townlike Mitford. After all, the world takes all kinds of people
to make it work.
Date: May 10 2001 13:57:01 EDT
From: Carrie Herrmann
Subject: RE: At home in Mitford
I do live in a small town and love it. But, I have to say, if I didn't have a
large city within a 45 minute drive I would go crazy. That may be one of the
reasons I enjoy the Mitford books. They take place in a familiar setting.>=====
Original Message From "Book Clique" =====>Book Clique -
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us>>Actually, speaking of the Episcopal church aspect...
When I started, I missed that it was Episcopalian... I originally thought it was
Catholic. So when the Bishop started talking about his wife, I was really confused!
A little later I caught the>refernce to the Episcopal church and felt much better!>>
As for if there are really any Mitfords out there... I'm not too sure. I've never
lived in a small town. Quite frankly, I don't think I ever really want to. I
think a town like Mitford would be great to visit on my way to another destination,
>but I wouldn't be happy living there. I do love reading about it, though. The
people I've read about so far really love living in a small town like Mitford.
After all, the world takes all kinds of people to make it work.>
Date: May 14 2001 14:46:59 EDT
From: Jeaore@cs.com
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
I loved this book - thanks for introducing me to this author! I look forward
to reading the rest of the series. I felt drawn into the setting and the characters
the way that Rosamunde Pilcher and Maeve Binchy draw you in. But instead of
someplace in England or Ireland, I got to know Mitford and felt even more involved
because it was small-town USA. While I'm familiar with Catholic parishes rather
than Episcopalian, the liturgies aren't too different, and I didn't have much
trouble picturing the Lord's Chapel. I found the religious grounding to the story
comforting. Sure, there are real Mitfords out there - Indiana is full of them.
The town where I went to high school had more than two blocks, but it did have
that kind of feel, like you could get your arms around the whole place. I don't
think the town of Mitford was what made the book so much as the cast of characters
we got to know, and there's probably a similar cast in every small town. They
just need an author able to tell their stories like Jan Karon does Mitford's, but
I don't think there are too many of those. I was charmed by the book, but I wondered
if the guys in the group would be as charmed. Do you think it's a chick book?Jean
O'Reillyjeaore@cs.com
Date: May 14 2001 14:56:21 EDT
From: Joel Robinson
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
BTW, Scottie is trying to land Jan Karon for an author visit at TCPL.I don't often
read fiction, but have read all of the Mitford series. Istarted because of the
Episcopal theme, but feel I have learned quite alotfrom the characters. One which
had a tememdous impact on me (sorry, I don'tremember their names due to time lapse
since reading it) has to do withkeeping one's word. The couple who live in the
old mansion divided: whenthe priest asked him why, given all the trials and zero
positives in theirmarriage, he doesn't leave her and go on to a better life. His
response wassimply, I made a promise for better or worse. Period.Each volume has
kept me reading long past the time I should have put thebook down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joel M. Robinson, County Librarian Voice:(765)429-0118
~~ Tippecanoe County Public Library FAX:(765)429-0150 ~~ 627 South Street
E-Mail: ~~ Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
~~ "I'd Rather Be Sailing"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: May 14 2001 15:29:59 EDT
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
Hi, I replied on Friday, and the server told me it couldn't send it, so I'm
sending another reply. I don't remember when I picked it up, but I read all of
these quite a while ago. The town does seem small and friendly. There are a
lot of them in Indiana. The church could also help to add to that friendly
feeling, they all know each other. I have read some other books about groups
of people, Friendship Cake, Quilting Club books, and another set of Front Porch
Tales, written by a minister from Indiana. The Front Porch Tales books are a
lot like Karon's. It would be really neat to meet this author. I have read all
of the books, including the newest about the wedding. It wasn't as long and was
developed more about the days of the wedding preparations. Interesting though.
Date: May 15 2001 12:58:56 EDT
From: Anne Jones
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
I like reading home-y stories occasionally. It's like eating comfortfood, warm
and cozy. I was reared in a small town and I'm sure we hadsimilar situations,
such as providing for our 'Uncle Willies.' It's alwaysreassuring to know that
the lives of our pastors are more like real peoplethan we thought. I'm grateful
to whoever suggested this book. I wasgetting bummed-out by the past ones.Anne
*** "When audiences come to see us authors lecture, it is largely
in the hope that we'll be funnier to look at than to read." Sinclair Lewis
*** ANNE JONES Youth Staff email ajones@tcpl.lib.in.us
Tippecanoe County Public Library
627 South Street Lafayette, In 47901
fax 765-429-0150 765-429-0119
Date: May 18 2001 14:55:49 EDT
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
I agree on the impression that the people make Mitford rather than viceversa. I
have met many of the characters throughout my experiences inlarge settings and
small. I also have lived in a small town where gossipand vendictiveness were the
norm. So yea rah for wonderful peoplewhereever they reside!
Date: May 18 2001
15:15:26 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
Great discussion on the Mitford ambience. As promised, let's hear fromJan Karon
herself in the form of an interview with her publisher:AUTHOR INTERVIEW Q: You
write about the small town of Mitford, yet haven'tyou spent most of your life
in cities? A: Until I was twelve I lived inthe country, then I spent many years
in cities. I think that I was bornwith a kind of deep affinity for the rural,
the rustic. In addition, I'mvery drawn to the pastoral novels of the English
genre - the village novelwhere a small group is used to paint a picture of a
larger society. Istill have in me a great love for the agrarian - for what this
countrywas, for what we still are. People say, "Oh well, I guess there's no such
thing as Mitford." Well, the good news is there are Mitfords all over thecountry,
and there are still great stretches of open land and pastures andmeadows and
fields. It's not all bad news. There's so much left of thiscountry that is
reasonable and moral and strong. And that's the part Irelate to. Q: You've often
said how important a rural upbringing was foryou. How has it influenced your
writing? A: On the farm there were longpassages of time in which to observe.
The senses are very important to me,and I try to bring the experience of the
senses into my writing. And lifeon the farm is very graphic. Calves are dropped,
colts are foaled, manurelies steaming in the sun. It's the bottom line of what
life is about. Q:Mitford is packed with delightful characters like Dooley, Miss
Rose, Emma,Miss Sadie, and Homeless Hobbes. Where do they all come from? A:
Darned ifI know. My characters walk in and introduce themselves to me and
I'm stuckwith them. When I first moved to Blowing Rock to write a book, I
struggledhard to write according to the outline I came here with, but the
booknever worked. The characters never got off the page. That was a realdefeat
for me. "Woman's dream turns to nightmare," I thought. "I don'tknow how to
write a book!" Then one night in my mind's eye I saw anEpiscopal priest
walking down the street. Idecided to follow him and seewhere he went. Well, he went to
a dog named Barnabas, they went to a boynamed Dooley, and the story unfolded before
me. Instead of me driving thestory, the story began to drive me! I got interested,
wrote a couple ofchapters, and there you have it. Q: How much do you personally
relate toFather Tim? Are you very much like him? A: Father Tim's personality is farmore
conservative than mine, but like Father Tim, I don't know a greatdeal about
having fun. If I get dragged into it, I can always enjoy it,but it's hard for
me to go out and find it on my own. And of course weboth share a faith. My books
are formed on my connection to God. That'sthe seasoning in the stew. Q: How
would you describe the nature of thatfaith? A: In my books I try to depict not
a glorious faith with celestialfireworks, but a daily faith, a routine faith, a
seven-days-a-week faith.Father Tim's faith is part of his everyday life. He has
simple prayers,not polished, pious prayers. He follows the Apostle Paul's
command that wepray without ceasing. I try to depict how our faith may be woven
into ourdaily life, like brandy poured into coffee. I believe that spirituality
needs to be basic, common, everyday. Q: Father Tim seems in the thick ofthings
whether he wants to be or not. How does this affect him? A: In thefirst book,
At Home in Mitford, he lived a very quiet life. In thesubsequent books we are
able to see far more of Father Tim's humanitybecause he is surrounded by people.
That means that his heart is going tobe broken and his patience is going to be
stretched - all of the thingsthat happen when we get involved with other people.
This has made him amuch more human figure. Father Tim is very heroic but he
does grand thingsin such a quiet way that he doesn't assume the proportions of
a hero. Ithink Father Tim is somebody who's into recycling and restoring people.
Itcomes from two places inside of him. First of all, it comes from thatplace
where he was so deeply wounded in his relationship with his father.He is in a
sense recycling himself; he's still trying to heal himself. Andsecond, he
operates on the fuel, the steam that comes from hisrelationship with Jesus
Christ. But he's definitely into reclamation,recycling, helping people find
the way - which is what Jesus is all about.So I suppose that Father Tim is a
type of Christ figure - not just becausehe is a preacher but because of the
way he is constructed. Q: Do you haveany conscious technique that so
effectively makes Mitford come alive forpeople? A: I grew up in the era of
radio. When you turned on the radio,you heard the voices and you filled in
all the blanks. Radio helped mebecome a writer. Television would never help
me become a writer. Withradio you have to color in everything. What you need
to do for readers isgive them as much free rein as they can take. Let them
participate in thestory by building their own imagery. Q: So conversations
and charactersbear the burden of telling the story? A: My books are about
relationships.With rare exceptions, the scenes are all one-on-one
relationships: FatherTim and Dooley, Father Tim and Cynthia, Father Tim and
Emma. There aretimes when I step away to the Grill where three or four
people are in arelationship. Basically, I try not to waste the reader's
time withdescriptive narrative, details of what people are wearing, how
they look,how tall they are. Q: You seem to have a lot of lovable eccentrics
in yourbooks. Are you attracted to unusual people? A: I see everyone as
unusual.Most everyone seems to have an extraordinary life story. "I just
lovepeople," was my grandmother's saying. Casting the writer's light
onordinary people makes them appear extraordinary.
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Date: May 19 2001 10:26:00 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
Here's a question to mull....What role does Barnabas play in Father Tim's life?
What other charactersseem to invade Father Tim's already busy life, only later
to proveenriching elements? Are there any that are a permanet drag on hisspirits?
How does Father Tim come to terms with them?Enjoy!
Date: May 21 2001 14:10:46 EDT
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
THANKS!! How wonderful to read her comments. I hadn't thought of radioshows
for quite some time. My father chatted about his favorite"Fibber Magie and
Molly" radio shows and I couldn't understand hisenthusiasm (until one came on
late at night on some strange channel manyyears later). Listening does help
you "color" the story. In this book Icould see the view from Miss Sadie's
window and smell the farm when Fathervisited. This was fun to read her comments!
Date: May 24 2001 15:42:35 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
Here's a question to ponder and respond....Which characters did you dislike at
first, only to later come toappreciate or at least understand them? What characters
in the book reactthat way to someone new?
Date: May 25 2001 17:00:28 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
As a helpful librarian, I have been thinking about how Mitford readerscould
find other similar titles! One great way is BY WORD OF MOUTH, so Iask you now
to email the list with other similar books you have enjoyedand what the connection
to the Mitford books is....theme, characters,tone, etc.Here are some other library
catalog searching tips that may also garneryou some GOOD READS....Depending on
whose on-line catalog you aresearching!1. CLERGY FICTION - try this search as a
subject heading or keyword andyou should find a variety of titles. Lots of
mysteries will pop up!2. NAME OF CHURCH and FICTION - try this search as a
subject heading orkeyword and you may be able to find fiction set in your
own church or a denomination in which you are familiarwith or curious about!
3. COUNTRY LIFE or VILLAGE(s) and FICTION - if the attaction of smalltown life
drew you to the series, these words entered in various on-line catalogs
should direct you to similar titles. CITYAND TOWN LIFE - FICTION will also
garner you some titles.So let's hear from you now. What else have you read
that you thinkMITFORD readers will enjoy! I will weigh in with my suggestions
next weekand conclude our visit together on Wednesday May 30th with some I
NTERNETSEARCHING TIPS! Over to you!!!!!!
Date: May 26 2001 10:18:16 EDT
From: KLDickson@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
In a message dated 5/25/01 3:03:41 PM, BookClique-owner@listbot.com writes:
<< As a helpful librarian, I have been thinking about how Mitford readerscould
find other similar titles! One great way is BY WORD OF MOUTH, so Iask you now
to email the list with other similar books you have enjoyedand what the connection
to the Mitford books is....theme, characters,tone, etc. >>Joanna Trollope came
to my mind immediately. I think that's how she spells her name. She's British,
but a village is a village, isn't it? Hers often include members of the
clergy. Also, good old Agatha Christie even though some of her villagers
turn up dead. I had a whole list in mind the other day, but now that you've
asked, it's gone. I'll think about it some more.
Date: May 26 2001 10:18:40 EDT
From: Sherri McGlothlin
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I have read two books by author Vinita Hampton Wright that I think might beenjoyed
by those who like the Mitford series. They are about small townlife and people
who both find joy and struggle with their Christian faith.The titles are "Velma
still cooks in Leeway" and "Grace at Bender Springs".Both books were excellent.
Sherri
Date: May 26 2001 10:29:17 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
If you were drawn to the series by its clergy context, let me recomendsome other
titlesIn a light vein, you may enjoy the works of Elizabeth Goudge, especiallyTHE
DEAN'S WATCH (Fiction Goudge). Several other of Miss Goudge's novelsare all set
in the same place, so there's another, albeit English world toexplore here.
Phillip Gulley's HARMONY series also captures much of the tone of theMitford
series, but perhaps some of you will disagree?On a more serious note, let me
suggest the works of Gail Godwin,especially:FATHER MELANCHOLY'S DAUGHTER...a
bittersweet and ultimately transcendentstory of a young girl's devotion to her
father, the rector of a smallVirginia church, and of the hope, dreams, and
love that sustain them bothin the wake of the betrayal and tragedy that
diminished their family. EVENSONG...In the tight-knit Smoky Mountain town of
High Balsam, severalweeks before the new millennium, Margaret Bonner finds
herself ponderingthe notion of marriage. "I was mystified anew by this whole
thing wehumans do when we take it into our heads to love one particular person,
"she muses. At 33, she is the first woman pastor of All Saints Episcopal Church,
andher husband, Adrian, is the headmaster of a progressive high school.
heBonners are in a marital slump--Adrian's self-loathing exasperates hisyounger,
morepassionate wife and she can't resist imagining what life would be likewithout
him. Yet as the end of the century approaches, they are forced toturn their
attention outward and respond to the escalating needs of theirNorth Carolina
community. The appearance of three colorful misfits brings matters to a head.
GraceMunger, an aggressive fundamentalist Christian, is on a crusade toorganize
a "Millennium Birthday March for Jesus"; Brother Tony, a chatty80-year-old
itinerant who's taken up the life of a Benedictine monk, has aparticular interest
in Adrian; and Chase, a 16-year-old delinquent,harbors a thirst for liquor, with
calamitous consequences. In her sequelto Father Melancholy's Daughter, Gail Godwin
expertly traces the contoursof faith, compassion, and loyalty in an isolated c
ommunity on the brink ofchange. --Rebecca Robinson --[Amazon review].
Date: May 27 2001 18:00:48 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
If the village life drew you to Mitford, here are some recommended readsfrom me
along with their TCPL call numbers:Hassler, Jon STAGGERFORD (Fiction Hassler)A
novel about a batchelor who teaches high school in small town Minnesotaand lodges
with a 41 year old spinsterBenson, E. F. Mapp and Lucia series (Fiction Benson)
A study of 1930s manners in an English villageLindvall, Michael L. THE GOOD NEWS
FROM NORTH HAVEN (Fiction Lindvall)Linked stories full of small town lifeRead,
Miss THRUSHGREEN series (Fiction Read)The queen of the village stories. Over
40 to choose fromPym, Barbara SOME TAME GAZELLE (Fiction Pym)Another mistress of
English village life. Rich relationships in all herwork.Binchey, Dan NEON MADONNA
and THE LAST RESORT (Fiction Binchey)Eccentries of rural life in the Republic of
Ireland********Some of you may have been intrigued by the "loner" insider/outside
natureof Father Tim. Here are some other titles you might enjoy.Edgerton, Clive.
WALKING ACROSS EGYPT (Fiction Edgerton)See what you think of the "Dooley"
character in this one! Meet MattieRigsby, independent widow of 78. Enjoy Mr.
Edgerton's view of theAmerican south.Girzone, Joseph F. JOSHUA (Fiction Girzone)
Lone carpenter Joshua moves to a small town and learns/teaches manylessons.SIMON'S
NIGHT by Jon Hassler (Ficiton Hassler)76 year old Simon loses his mail, his car,
and his way home. Folow him toa nursing home and the reimergence of his life
through past reflection anda major surprise.Harkness, Clare MONSIEUR DE
BRILLANCOURT (Fiction Harkness)Let's go to France this time and meet our
lead character. Watch his lifechange as love moves in.
Date: May 29 2001 10:08:30 EDT
From: Jeaore@cs.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
In a message dated 5/25/2001 4:03:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
BookClique-owner@listbot.com writes:<< As a helpful librarian, I have been
thinking about how Mitford readers could find other similar titles! One great
way is BY WORD OF MOUTH, so I ask you now to email the list with other similar
books you have enjoyed and what the connection to the Mitford books is....theme,
characters, tone, etc. >>I was reminded a little bit of Susan Howatch's Church
of England series: GLITTERING IMAGES .......................................
1987GLAMOROUS POWERS ........................................ 1988ULTIMATE
PRIZES ......................................... 1989SCANDALOUS RISKS ........
................................ 1990MYSTICAL PATHS ..........................
................ 1992These are a little heavier going than the Mitford series,
but they're good stories and had a lot to say about how the Anglican clergy
live and work.Jean O'Reilly
Date: May 29 2001 10:18:19 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
STILL looking for similar titles to read, or for "read-a-likes"? Here isa simple
(but clumsy) Internet strategy that I found fun.Using any good search engine
(this works with GOOGLE), type in "If youlike Jan Karon" including the quotation
marks and you will pull librarybooklists from across the nation and around the
world....It also works with other popular authors i.e. "If you like Clive
Cussler"brings up some really unique thriller lists.Have fun with this, and
keep reading!
Date: May 29 2001 16:21:01 EDT
From: Beth397@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I have a question to pose for everyone... What do you think about priests,
pastors, preachers, etc getting married? Catholics say no because it takes
their focus away from their congregation. Other denominations say it's allright.
What do you think?
Date: May 30 2001 09:21:28 EDT
From: Jeaore@cs.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
In a message dated 5/29/2001 3:15:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Beth397@aol.com writes:<< I have a question to pose for everyone... What
do you think about priests, pastors, preachers, etc getting married?
Catholics say no because it takes their focus away from their congregation.
Other denominations say it's all right. What do you think? >>That's a really
good question, Beth. I am a Catholic, and the daughter of a Catholic priest.
(Dad entered the seminary a few years after Mom died.) I really can't agree
with the Catholic hierarchy on this one. I see no reason why marriage need
interfere with a priestly vocation. Jewish congregations have had married
rabbis for thousands of years and it doesn't appear to have interfered with
their devotion. There is such a gap today between the number of Catholics
needing pastors and the number of men entering the priesthood that I think
the Church will have to modify its position at some point, but probably not d
uring this papacy.Jean O'Reillyjeaore@cs.com
Date: May 30 2001 09:31:11 EDT
From: Tsrsmith22@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I think that it is great to have priests and nuns marry. I think that the holy
focus is a nice thing, but in today's world, clergy is looked upon for many
things, for counseling men, women, relationships and children... And if you have
not been there, done that, how can a priest or a nun give sound advice?? Just
an opinion.
Date: May 30 2001 09:37:36 EDT
From: "Book Clique"
Subject: At Home in Mitford
FINALLY, NOW, let's consider a rating for At Home in Mitford.*Ratings scale is
1-5, 1 being "not worth the trouble" and 5 being "amust". We also welcome
suggestions for upcoming selections. In June we will discuss Sebastian Junger's
A Perfect Storm (which I lovedand CANT imagine them making a movie about)and
in July we will discussThe Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. I cannot recommend
this book toohighly. For folks who DONT like Science Fiction, and have an
affinity forthe religious life, here is a summary:In 2019, humanity finally
finds proof of extraterrestrial life when alistening post in Puerto Rico picks
up exquisite singing from a planetwhich will come to be known as Rakhat.
While United Nations diplomatsendlessly debate a possible first contact mission,
the Society of Jesusquietly organizes an eight-person scientific expedition
of its own. Whatthe Jesuits find is a world so beyond comprehension that it
will lead themto question the meaning of being "human." When the lone survivor
of theexpedition, Emilio Sandoz, returns to Earth in 2059, he will try toexplain
what went wrong... Words like "provocative" and "compelling" willcome to mind
as you read this shocking novel about first contact with arace that creates
music akin to both poetry and prayer. - (publisher note)I look forward to
seeing your MITFORD ratings! Have a good summer. Itwas fun "meeting" all
of you.Thank you
Date: May 30 2001 10:01:01 EDT
From: Joel Robinson
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
At 01:33 PM 5/30/01 -0000, you wrote:>Book Clique - http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us>>
FINALLY, NOW, let's consider a rating for At Home in Mitford.4.5
Date: May 30 2001 14:24:52 EDT
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
Hi,I guess I would give it a 4.5, leaning toward a 5, but then I have read the
whole series, and I do think this was the best of all of them. Maybe that is
what gets us hooked on a series. We really like the first one best. Similar
to movies.Date: May 30 2001 17:02:54 EDT
From: HANNA2014@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I give it a 4. I enjoy all the Mitford books.
Date: May 30 2001 16:58:22 EDT
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
You can give sound advice the same way as other professions without havingbeen
there and done that. The drug/alcohol councelor need not have beenthere and
done that nor the teacher have children before teaching aclassroom. Whatcha
think? Date: May 31 2001 09:09:48 EDT
From: KLDickson@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I'll give it a 3.5. It was enjoyable, but I don't think I'll read the rest of
the series,
Date: May 31 2001 09:10:12 EDT
From: Jeaore@cs.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
In a message dated 5/30/2001 8:33:29 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
bookClique-owner@listbot.com writes:<< FINALLY, NOW, let's consider a rating
for At Home in Mitford. >>I'll give it a 4.5 as well. I enjoyed it very much,
but I probably won't go back to it again as I do to a selected few favorites.
Date: May 31 2001 09:01:58 EDT
From: Tsrsmith22@aol.com
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
true, you are correct about that... I know it is slanted, but I think that nuns
and priests should be able to experience the world the way others do...indulging
in whatever. If they choose not to, that is fine, but to have the opportunity...
that is another thing. I have read one Mitford book and thought it was great...
Date: May 31 2001 09:06:40 EDT
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: At Home in Mitford
I would rate this book a "high 5"! The Father Tim character made meexamine
some of my own "ways" of doing things, of thinking, of findingexcitement among
the quiet villages of my life. Viewing life as positiveand enjoying the good in
life while the bad exists is better than goinghyper over the bad. (Couldn't we
break into song with "Excentuate thePossitive!)
Date: May 31 2001 11:20:02 EDT
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: At home in Mitford
Hi all,I don't remember what drew me to this, except I was browsing in B&N one
night and found the first one. By the time I read the second they came out with
the group of four cheaper of course. I read all of the first five and gave them
away to others and had to get another to reread. I loved the small town and all
of the characters. Sure wish she would come up with the recipe for that cake.
There are a lot of other books out there about small towns and all of the characters,
or small groups, example, Friendship Cake, the Quilting Club books, and some about
Tales from my back Porch, can't remember the author, but he's from Indiana. I
think that is what I liked. She does such a good job of telling about the
characters, you can almost see them. I was sad when the book was over. Thank
goodness then I still had several to read. But it was a long stretch to # 5,
and # 6 wasn't nearly long enough. Similar to other series - after you get
caught up with all of them, the authors don't write fast enough.
Date: Jun 05 2001 09:11:04 EDT
From: "Lew Starkey"
Subject: At Home In Mitford
When I started this book I did not think it would be a "can not wait to get home
to read it ", type of book but I found myself reading it at any opportunity to
find out more about Father Tim and the town. I rate it a 4.0, a nice easy read
but not super exciting. I told my mom about the book, she does not have a
computer so I tell her every month what we are reading and she reads it after
I am done, she had read At Home in Mitford and has the series. I enjoyed it
enough to now be reading A Light in the Window and have These High,Green Hills
which I also plan to read.
back to top
The Sparrow
Date: Jul 02 2001 18:20:56 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: The Sparrow
Hi, People!
I'm Ian McKinney, your moderator for The Sparrow. The author, Mary Doria
Russell, will be joining our discussion this month! I've heard Mary speak
(at a conference)--and she is a very funny speaker. Go see her if you ever
get the chance.
Here's a question that I have had for a long time (ever since I read the
book the first time): It's science fiction, right? So why wasn't it
marketed that way? Even my library has it in General Fiction, rather than
Science Fiction. I know she sent the book to 25 or 30 publishers (or was
it agents?) before having it accepted, so maybe that is part of the
problem, but that it seems silly to me after reading it to think that
anyone in science fiction publishing would pass this up!
Here's a little biographical info, and a web site where you can find more:
"Mary Doria Russell was born near Chicago in 1950 to a Navy nurse and
a Marine Corps drill sergeant and, as a consequence, had a remarkable
if dismaying vocabulary prior to attending Sacred Heart Catholic
Elementary School, where she learned discretion. She was an A student,
a Girl Scout and a virgin bride, and waited until she was 29 to have
her adolescent rebellion. She does not recommend this lifestyle to
others, although it worked well enough for her.
"A paleoanthropologist with specialities in bone biology and
biomechanics, Dr. Russell did extended field work in Australia and
Croatia. She had a great time, published a lot of stuff, won a bunch
of awards and grants but eventually got fed up with Academe and quit.
She spent four lucrative years writing computer manuals before
beginning her novel, The Sparrow. Russell estimates that about 22
anthropologists, world-wide, read her academic publications and
NOBODY ever reads computer manuals, so she figured that if even just
her friends read her novel, she was way ahead in terms of readership
because she has lots of friends. A recovering academic, she must
still rely on a Higher Power to resist the impulse to footnote
everything she writes."
--from http://members.stratos.net/druss44121/bio.html
I also want to mention that you may see a message either on the ListBot web
site or via email telling you that ListBot, the site that manages our
online book club email list, is closing. It WILL be available for the
month of July, so don't worry--the discussion of The Sparrow should proceed
as planned! We'll be making a decision on how to proceed in August very
soon, and we'll post the information on our web site
(http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ref/bookgroup.html).
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 03 2001 16:56:55 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Marketing The Sparrow
In a message dated 7/2/01 6:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
<< I've heard Mary speak (at a conference)--and she is a very funny speaker.
>>
But I'm getting speech therapy, and will be much easier to undersand next
time...
>> Here's a question that I have had for a long time (ever since I read the
book the first time): It's science fiction, right?>>
Yes. Of course, it is. There's a spaceship, and they go to another planet and
meet aliens. But it's very classy science fiction. It's got Latin and
everything.
>> So why wasn't it
marketed that way? Even my library has it in General Fiction, rather than
Science Fiction. >>
It's also shelved in science fiction in a lot of places. Sometimes it's even
in "Literature."
You know how they decide what goes in General Fiction and what goes in
Literature? If the store manager had to look up three words, it's Literature.
>>I know she sent the book to 25 or 30 publishers (or was
it agents?) before having it accepted, so maybe that is part of the
problem, but that it seems silly to me after reading it to think that
anyone in science fiction publishing would pass this up!>>
It was 31 agents, not publishers, and all 31 were people who represent
science fiction writers but didn't think that science fiction publishers
would be interested in The Sparrow. Which just goes to show.
When Jane Dystel took me on as a client, she had never handled SF before, so
she took the manuscript to mainstream editors she knew well, and who had a
reputation for publishing quirky books that don't slot neatly into a genre.
One of them had published Clan of the Cave Bears, for example, another book
that doesn't exactly fit the mold for bestseller.
Anyway, Random House outbid the other five publishers, and it was their
decision to market The Sparrow as literary fiction. They thought the SF
audience would discover it eventually, but many mainstream readers are
actively hostile to the genre, and we'd lose at least half the readership if
we didn't reach out to the ones who ordinarily never go near science fiction.
The tactic worked. Usually SF novels top out at about 4000 copies sold, and
then go out of print within a year. The Sparrow and Children of God are both
still in print and sell steadily at around 30,000 copies a year, to sf and
mainstream readers alike.
Here's what I hear most often when I'm doing book tours: "I hate science
fiction, but I loved your book." I always ask, "What science fiction have you
read?" And people always say, "Oh, I never read that stuff." Now THERE'S an
informed opinion...
So I hope the people in this reading group are willing to give The Sparrow a
chance. --MDR
Date: Jul 03 2001 21:44:54 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: interview
There's a fascinating interview with MDR posted on that web page I
mentioned earlier (http://members.stratos.net/druss44121/butler.html) in
which she says "I meant for the book to reward rereading." I read it back
when it came out, and have been rereading it for this discussion--and wow.
It's a whole new experience of the book.
One thing I've really appreciated on rereading is the author's use of
history to illuminate her subject matter. Certainly the history of Isaac
Jogues and his missions to the Iroquois Indians, who eventually killed him,
really help to situate the mission to Rakhat. (Note to MDR: of course, now
I have to reread Children of God, because of that whole "what happened to
Jogues when he went back" thing ...)
--Ian
Date: Jul 10 2001 15:25:55 EDT
From: Jon Althouse
Subject: RE: Interview
> There's a fascinating interview with MDR ... in which
> she says "I meant for the book to reward rereading." I read
> it back when it came out, and have been rereading it for this
> discussion--and wow. It's a whole new experience of the book.
The difficulty I had in getting more out of a reread is that I couldn't slow
myself down. If she had REALLY meant it to reward rereading, she would've
made the characters flatter and much less interesting.
One of the things that tantalizes me from that interview is everything that
was cut out. Objectively, I'm sure that made it a much better book.
Subjectively, I want to know all about how that asteroid was built!
Especially since in the interview and elsewhere she talks about how she did
a fair amount of research into the matter.
> (Note to MDR: of course, now I
> have to reread Children of God, because of that whole "what
> happened to Jogues when he went back" thing ...)
(Note to Ian & MDR: of course, now I have to read about Jogues because of
that whole "what happened to Sandoz when he went back" thing ...)
In the interview, MDR says about her treatment of the hasta'akala procedure:
"I think it is more effective to be very dry, very
distanced from such scenes, rather than literal. Think of how
much less frightening movies like Alien and Jaws become the
moment you actually see the monster in pursuit. What you
imagined is much, much scarier than what you are shown."
And yet, the next horror faced by Sandoz with Hlavin is described (to my
delicate sensibilities) very graphically. I wonder, is that just a matter
of my sensibilities? If not, why is that description more graphic than the
others? My initial thought was that it was the most horrible -- but these
tragedies are pretty hard to quantify ...
I'm new to this group. I'm trying to be a little vague so as not to give
things away. Is that necessary, or do we assume that people have finished
the book before coming to the discussion?
Blessings,
Jon
P.S. Van Hagar, 5150? - come on! That may be the most horrific scene in
the book! ;-)
Date: Jul 10 2001 16:45:40 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: RE: Interview
At 12:00 PM 7/10/01 -0700, Jon wrote:
>I'm new to this group. I'm trying to be a little vague so as not to give
>things away. Is that necessary, or do we assume that people have finished
>the book before coming to the discussion?
I'm pretty new, too ... and that's a great question.
I'm inclined to say that being a little vague is probably a good idea. And
if it's not possible to do that, given that this book relies so heavily on
the code of enigma (it's a mystery, in some ways, and a lot is revealed at
the end of the book), it might be desirable to warn people if you're
discussing something that might give something major away by putting
"[SPOILERS]" in the subject of your email.
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 11 2001 09:11:16 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interview
Response to Jon's note, from MDR:
<< The difficulty I had in getting more out of a reread is that I couldn't
slow
myself down. If she had REALLY meant it to reward rereading, she would've
made the characters flatter and much less interesting.>>
Sorry, Jon. I'll do my best to make the characters less interesting in the
next novel.
Actually, I'm afraid that they might be. A Thread of Grace is about the
Jewish underground in Genoa during the Nazi occupation of Italy, so the job
this time is to make 20 months of real but relatively unknown history come
alive. I've started with a plot, rather than with the characters, and apart
from one, I don't have the same grip on these people that I did when I was
writing The Sparrow and Children of God. I expect to get slammed on that in
reviews, assuming I ever manage to FINISH THIS DAMNED THING. Sorry. I'm under
a little stress here...
The exception is the Nazi deserter, who is the backbone character in this
book. Him, I get. Which is kind of scary. If I'd been willing to make him the
main character and let it go at that, this would have been a 250-page book
that was done a year ago. But nooooo-oooo. I had to have Jewish refugees. I
had to have Italian partisans. I had to have religious and political themes.
Dumb shit...
>> One of the things that tantalizes me from that interview is everything that
was cut out. Objectively, I'm sure that made it a much better book.
Subjectively, I want to know all about how that asteroid was built!
Especially since in the interview and elsewhere she talks about how she did
a fair amount of research into the matter.>>
There was a WHOLE CHAPTER about the Japanese space program and their economy
and a rightwing coup, and why they and the Australians were doing asteroid
mining and so on. Believe me, you don't want to know.
> (Note to MDR: of course, now I
> have to reread Children of God, because of that whole "what
> happened to Jogues when he went back" thing ...)
(Note to Ian & MDR: of course, now I have to read about Jogues because of
that whole "what happened to Sandoz when he went back" thing ...)>>
MDR to both of you: I think you're overplaying the Jogues hand. There's no
direct parallel. The important thing about Jogues was, he went back.
>>In the interview, MDR says about her treatment of the hasta'akala
procedure:
"I think it is more effective to be very dry, very
distanced from such scenes, rather than literal. Think of how
much less frightening movies like Alien and Jaws become the
moment you actually see the monster in pursuit. What you
imagined is much, much scarier than what you are shown."
And yet, the next horror faced by Sandoz with Hlavin is described (to my
delicate sensibilities) very graphically. I wonder, is that just a matter
of my sensibilities? >>
I think so. I was really very restrained in that scene. "It got very much
worse after that," is all I say. I just bring you through the slow
realization, and then step away from the scene.
On the other hand, I think Emilio is pretty brutal when he finally tells the
other priests about it. They've badgered him and pressured him for months,
and he did his level best to protect them from what he knew, but the Father
General kept hammering away. Tell us, tell us, tell us. So the poison just
comes vomiting out. And anyone in psychology will tell you, that has to
happen. You've got to name it, say it, tell about it, or it will eat you
alive. So Giuliani did the right thing, but it cost everybody.
>> If not, why is that description more graphic than the
others? My initial thought was that it was the most horrible -- but these
tragedies are pretty hard to quantify ... >>
Exactly. And what really broke Emilio was not what happened with Hlavin. It
was
what happened to Askama. Hlavin made him murderous. Askama broke his heart.
>>I'm new to this group. I'm trying to be a little vague so as not to give
things away. Is that necessary, or do we assume that people have finished
the book before coming to the discussion?>>
Don't know. When I speak to groups in person, I usually ask people to refer
to What Happened To Emilio without actually giving it away. I worked very
hard to keep that a surprise--it's not a trick ending, but usually readers
are shocked, as they are meant to be. Here's something to think about though:
if it had been Sofia, it would have been a cliche, right? One of the things I
was trying to do was show the aftereffects--you don't just get over it. I
wanted to make sure that nobody who reads this book can ever again distance
themselves from that crime. You hear about it on the evening news, but now
you've had a look at what the years are like afterward.
Before anyone asks, I was not writing autobiographically, thank God. But I
get letters from people who tell me that I nailed the experience, and the
aftermath.
>>P.S. Van Hagar, 5150? - come on! That may be the most horrific scene in
the book! ;-)
HEY!!!! I loved 5150! God, I wore the oxide off that tape. My own personal
favorite band from the era was Def Leppard. Hysteria was a perfect album. But
5150 was a close second. --MDR
Date: Jul 11 2001 09:45:12 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: music
>>P.S. Van Hagar, 5150? - come on! That may be the most horrific scene in
the book! ;-)
>HEY!!!! I loved 5150! God, I wore the oxide off that tape. My own personal
>favorite band from the era was Def Leppard. Hysteria was a perfect album.
But
>5150 was a close second. --MDR
Okay, people! Personal musical taste should not be subject to attack nor
need to be defended on Book Clique! ;-)
Oh, yeah--I have a couple of passages marked that I want to mention, but I
don't have them on me right now, because my wife is reading the book!
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 11 2001 14:11:49 EDT
From: Jon Althouse
Subject: RE: Interview
MDR wrote:
> So Giuliani did the right thing, but it cost everybody.
Unlike the next book where Giuliani did the wrong thing, but everybody
benefits (or so it could be argued).
> When I speak to groups in person, I usually ask people to refer
> to What Happened To Emilio without actually giving it away. I worked very
> hard to keep that a surprise--it's not a trick ending, but usually readers
> are shocked, as they are meant to be. Here's something to think about
though:
> if it had been Sofia, it would have been a cliché, right?
It wouldn't have worked, but I don't know if it would have necessarily been
cliché. It wouldn't have worked largely because of her past, but also
because she didn't expect the world to give her happiness, and because "I am
Mendes." IMHO, "there is nothing new under the sun," so cliché is more in
the method of presentation. If I had written the book, even that scene with
Sandoz would've seemed cliché; with you writing it, even the idea of "first
contact" is not cliché.
> One of the things I was trying to do was show the aftereffects--you don't
just
> get over it. I wanted to make sure that nobody who reads this book can
ever
> again distance themselves from that crime.
And the hands are a wonderful reminder of that. I think we all grasp that
the emotional scars remain from such events. But here we are forced to
appreciate that the scars remain AND function is altered. The scars left by
the physical, emotional and spiritual trauma are not merely cosmetic.
Although we can hope (and our hopes turn out to be justified) that he will
function again with a kind of grace, emotionally and even spiritually, it
will not be the same ol' Sandoz.
> HEY!!!! I loved 5150! God, I wore the oxide off that tape. My own personal
> favorite band from the era was Def Leppard. Hysteria was a perfect album.
But
> 5150 was a close second. --MDR
I was just giving you a hard time, of course. I actually owned 5150 on
vinyl. I didn't hate it as much as I suggested, but I was in no danger of
wearing out the groove. If only Def Leppard had a song that mentioned two
worlds ...
Have y'all read "Silence" by Shushaku Endo? Reading that recently is what
inspired me to reread The Sparrow. It's the story of a 16th Century
Portuguese Jesuit missionary going to the then foreign world of Japan. No
prehensile feet, but still a culture shock. It was very interesting to read
the two together - if you can avoid a psychotic episode, that is. There are
plenty of painful events in that mission, too.
Blessings,
Jon
Date: Jul 12 2001 09:06:56 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Silence by Endo
In a message dated 7/11/01 2:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jalthouse@bfaz.org writes:
<<
Have y'all read "Silence" by Shushaku Endo? Reading that recently is what
inspired me to reread The Sparrow. It's the story of a 16th Century
Portuguese Jesuit missionary going to the then foreign world of Japan. No
prehensile feet, but still a culture shock. It was very interesting to read
the two together - if you can avoid a psychotic episode, that is. There are
plenty of painful events in that mission, too.
>>
I read Silence a couple of years after The Sparrow was published, and I
thought it was wonderful. Very spare, very distanced, but the ethical punch
at the end was grand. I'll add my recommendation to Jon's.
Date: Jul 12 2001 09:57:46 EDT
From: Sarah Brown
Subject: RE: Interview
IMHO, I don't see how we could have a discussion about the book by having
to tiptoe around the issues and the ending. If somone hasn't read the book
they should probably avoid reading the messages until they have read the
book so as not to spoil it for themselves.
Sarah
>At 12:00 PM 7/10/01 -0700, Jon wrote:
>>I'm new to this group. I'm trying to be a little vague so as not to give
>>things away. Is that necessary, or do we assume that people have finished
>>the book before coming to the discussion?
>I'm inclined to say that being a little vague is probably a good idea. And
>if it's not possible to do that, given that this book relies so heavily on
>the code of enigma (it's a mystery, in some ways, and a lot is revealed at
>the end of the book), it might be desirable to warn people if you're
>discussing something that might give something major away by putting
>"[SPOILERS]" in the subject of your email.
>
>--Ian
Date: Jul 12 2001 11:28:39 EDT
From: BkFun999@aol.com
Subject: The Sparrow
Until right before the end, I loved reading this book. And to say that the
ending was a shocker for me is a HUGE understatement. I about went crazy
wanting to know what happened to Emilio, but once I knew, I immediately
started wishing that I didn't.
Here's an interesting note. I have been in a book club for three years with
five other women. We have an annual vote on what books to read in the
upcoming year, and a member can only add a book to the candidate list if she
has read it. Well, I was enjoying The Sparrow SO MUCH that I added it to the
list before I had finished the book. Imagine my discomfort when I did finish
it! Religion has been one of the most difficult subjects for my group to
deal with respectfully. We lost one member, and came close to losing a
couple more over these sensitivities. We had three Christians that I would
call fundamentalists (now down to two), a Lutheran, an unknown, a Catholic,
and a Presbyterian. The latter two are, interestingly enough, the most
liberal of the group. Anyway, I suddenly found myself AFRAID of what would
happen in a group discussion if we read The Sparrow! I was picturing a
couple members literally throwing the book at my head!
That experience has made The Sparrow one of my favorite books! What a relief
though that my book group didn't get around to choosing it!
P.S. I loved the characters that went on the mission. It made me want them
to be my own friends - how I would enjoy having them over!
Date: Jul 13 2001 12:59:03 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Sparrow
In a message dated 7/12/01 11:24:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
BkFun999@aol.com writes:
<< And to say that the
ending was a shocker for me is a HUGE understatement. >>
Well, now, I told you in the first chapter what Emilio was accused of. You
had 400 pages to get used to the idea.
>>I about went crazy
wanting to know what happened to Emilio, but once I knew, I immediately
started wishing that I didn't.>>
Just like John Candotti!
>> Religion has been one of the most difficult subjects for my group to
deal with respectfully. We lost one member, and came close to losing a
couple more over these sensitivities. We had three Christians that I would
call fundamentalists (now down to two), a Lutheran, an unknown, a Catholic,
and a Presbyterian. The latter two are, interestingly enough, the most
liberal of the group. Anyway, I suddenly found myself AFRAID of what would
happen in a group discussion if we read The Sparrow! I was picturing a
couple members literally throwing the book at my head!>>
And yet, the book is used in theology courses taught in seminaries, it's
assigned as a common book to be read by the entire incoming freshmen classes
of colleges, and I get e-mail all the time from pastors and priests who tell
me they recommend it to their congregations and steal material from me for
their sermons. So. Go figure...
>>That experience has made The Sparrow one of my favorite books! What a
relief
though that my book group didn't get around to choosing it!>>
Well, I"m delighted that you liked it so much, but don't underestimate your
book group's capacity for grappling with issues like the ones in The Sparrow.
Fundamentally, it is about the problem of evil, and these three statements.
God is all-good.
God is all powerful.
Evil exists.
Traditionally, theologians have held that only two of those statements can be
true simultaneously. The Jewish solution to the conundrum is stated at the
end of The Sparrow by Felipe Reyes: God breathes in, withdrawing from
creation so that something besides God can exist, and in doing so,
voluntarily limits divine power. Many other religions divide the power in the
universe into forces of darkness and forces of light, as a way of dealing
with the existence of evil. Some religions eliminate evil: everything is
God's will, and our dissatisfaction with the universe is evidence of our lack
of understanding of that perfect will.
This is not grammar school theology, but these are the kinds of questions
that serious religious people have struggled with for 6000 years in all the
cultures on this planet.
>>P.S. I loved the characters that went on the mission. It made me want
them
to be my own friends - how I would enjoy having them over! >>
They've all been at my table, one time or another... --MDR
Date: Jul 13 2001 16:06:01 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: The Sparrow IS science fiction! [rant]
I just read a short review of The Sparrow in Library Journal (May 15,
2001). In "The Reader's Shelf," edited by Nancy Pearl, there is a column
called "What Does Your Book Group Read Next?" Here's what it says (it's
unclear whether this column is written by Pearl):
"Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow is often mistakenly categorized as
science fiction, with the result that many book groups avoid it and miss
both a great read and a great book to discuss."
First, it is not a mistake to categorize The Sparrow as science fiction.
It may be that the columnist meant that it is a mistake to categorize it at
all ... which I might agree with somewhat. Second, she is referring
obliquely to that class of people who say condescendingly "oh, I don't read
science fiction" (and yes, there are some in my library!) because they
don't have a clear picture of what science fiction really is. Maybe I'll
write a column for her in which I show that if you are thinking of bug-eyed
monster movies from the 1950s, or even of Star Wars, your idea of science
fiction needs to be updated.
I am very happy to report that TCPL thought of doing a SCIENCE FICTION book
to go with our Summer Reading Club theme of "2001: A Reading Odyssey" well
before it was recommended (as NOT science fiction) by Library Journal.
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 13 2001 16:06:02 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: recommending The Sparrow
>And yet, the book is used in theology courses taught in seminaries, it's
>assigned as a common book to be read by the entire incoming freshmen classes
>of colleges, and I get e-mail all the time from pastors and priests who tell
>me they recommend it to their congregations and steal material from me for
>their sermons. So. Go figure...
This is certainly one of the things I like best about The Sparrow: it
reflects several fairly intellectual theological traditions. It's such a
breath of fresh air, especially in the library setting, where at least I am
often focused on the well-meaning but often narrow-minded attempts of
fundamentalists to ban books like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
from schools and libraries.
I mean, I can see that that book could be pretty horrifying if you actually
believed that witches and wizards were real and fell into a class of
persons who were directly responsible for evil acts--obviously, then, you
wouldn't want your kids reading about even funny, good wizards battling
against ridiculous bad wizards. Presumably you wouldn't want your kids
reading Macbeth, either--which is much more a how-to guide for being a
witch than Harry Potter. Did you know there are actual recipes in that
thing?!
Well, anyway--what I wanted to say is that I've recommended The Sparrow to
lots of people, and the ones who have read it have all liked it, mainly for
the reason that it is very inclusive in its theology. My mom, for one--a
Catholic nun in the Order of St. Benedict (she converted to Catholicism
about 12 years ago.) But then, she reads science fiction!
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 14 2001 17:01:39 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: recommending The Sparrow
In a message dated 7/13/01 4:01:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
<< -what I wanted to say is that I've recommended The Sparrow to
lots of people, and the ones who have read it have all liked it, mainly for
the reason that it is very inclusive in its theology. My mom, for one--a
Catholic nun in the Order of St. Benedict (she converted to Catholicism
about 12 years ago.) But then, she reads science fiction! >>
Your mom sounds like a very interesting woman!
Actually, this issue about inclusion is one that's come up over and over.
I've thought hard about why the book has done so well across so many
categories of readers. It's been translated into a dozen languages, including
Hebrew, Korean and Japanese, so the cultural reach is much longer than I
would have imagined, and it works for people who hate science fiction and who
love it, males, females, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, gay, straight,
Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Buddhist, atheist. Believe me, no one is more
surprised than I. What is going on here?
Looking back on it, I have decided that it's due to the cast of characters.
They range from a flat-out atheist with no God-shaped hole in his soul
(George Edwards) to a full-blown bridal mystic (Emilio Sandoz), with all
gradations in between: indifference, agnosticism and a variety of variations
on religious belief.
So whatever the reader's point of view on matters of faith, there is somebody
in the book who can articulate that reader's reaction to what is happening.
There is someone whose faith is shadowless and firm, and there's somebody
else to say, "Oh, for crying out loud--you can't seriously believe THAT?"
There are people who are not sure of answers but who are willing to take the
questions seriously.
At the same time, I let each of my characters be as persuasive as they could
be. So the atheist reader gets a little window into the mind of a true
believer, and the believer hears why an agnostic can refuse to take the step
toward faith that seems natural and necessary to a person of faith. Everybody
walks away from the encounter with a more nuanced view of these matters.
If you talk about these matters in real life, you have to be ready to
articulate and defend your own views, and that tension keeps you from really
hearing what the other person is saying. When reading a book like this, you
listen to these characters' ideas without the pressure of having to express
your own.
Is my opinion, anyway. I get a lot of e-mail from around the world, so that's
just what I've abstracted from the messages. Your mileage may differ... --MDR
Date: Jul 17 2001 17:48:31 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: questions
Who bears the responsibility for what occurs on Rakhat?
This question was suggested by the columnist who doesn't think it's science
fiction. I'll chime in at some point with my opinion, but I wanted to ask
the question first and see if anyone has any thoughts. Perhaps MDR will
give us her take on it as well, but maybe not right away!
I just started thinking of what the possible answers might be if this were
a multiple choice question ... but never mind that now.
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 17 2001 19:43:55 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: response to columnist
Well, I simmered down a little and wrote to Nancy Pearl (the columnist who
seems to say it is a mistake to classify The Sparrow as science fiction).
In part, here's what I said:
"As a reader of many genres, I think SF gets short shrift from otherwise
reasonable people. The prominence of the mostly poorly done novels in the
Star Wars universe and other TV/movie tie-ins hurts the credibility of
science fiction as a genre where serious literature can be written (and
discussed); and, in my opinion, statements like yours exacerbate the
problem--essentially (at least as I took it) saying "yes, you're right to
avoid science fiction, so I'm going to tell you to read this book because
it isn't science fiction." But perhaps you didn't mean it like that ..."
I also invited her to join this discussion. We'll see ...
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 18 2001 15:42:16 EDT
From: Jon Althouse
Subject: RE: questions
Ian "innocently" asks:
> Who bears the responsibility for what occurs on Rakhat?
God ;-)
Seriously, this is an especially complex question. I think one thing MDR
was doing in this book was a thought experiment posing the question: How
screwed up could things get in a "first contact" situation where all the
parties have good intentions and are doing their best? She has said that
part of the inspiration for her story was the 500th anniversary of Columbus'
voyage:
"MDR: The ideas came within about thirty seconds of one another. In 1992,
on the five hundredth anniversary of the landing of Columbus in the
Americas, the Arecibo radio telescope began a formal SETI. I had already
been thinking about the historical revisionism that condemned Columbus and
all the early explorers and missionaries as vicious, exploitative and
deliberately evil,
and thought that it was unfair to subject men who'd been dead for four
hundred and seventy years to standards of cultural sensitivity and respect
for diversity that we only pay lipservice to now. ...The Jesuits were
already on my mind, because I had been doing some reading about the early
missionary work in New France, and they just popped up as the obvious
logical choice as an interesting group to send into space on another
'mission'. AND THIS TIME, THEY WOULD TRY TO DO IT RIGHT."
(emphasis added, taken from the interview Ian tipped us off to at
http://members.stratos.net/druss44121/butler.html)
So, I think the basic point is that there is very little blame to go around.
MDR presents the party as doing their best to "do it right." Most of the
bad results stem from honest and virtually unforeseeable mistakes. This is
why there is the temptation to point the finger at God -- Anne would call it
more of an indisputable fact.
There is SOME responsibility to be borne by the party, but before I get into
that could you clarify two things?
First, which occurence(s) on Rakhat are we talking about?
1. slaughter at the village
2. what Sandoz ate
3. hasta'akala
4. "Prostitution"
5. "Murder"
6. General upheaval of society (although we don't actually see much
of that until the next book)
Second, what do we want to mean by "bearing responsibility"? The point is
made in The Sparrow that there is a distinction between "causation" and
"culpability." So, for many of these, it is easy to say that yes they
caused this or that. Whether they are culpable is another question. Is
bearing responsibility the same as culpability or blameworthy. Or is it
meant more like causation?
Blessings,
Jon
P.S. There was a special called "Secrets of the Dead" on PBS in Phoenix
last night about a battle between British and Zulu armies. I didn't see
much of it, but there was an interesting tidbit that relates to this theme
of honest misunderstandings of culture. After the battle, the victorious
Zulu warriors disemboweled their slain foes. The British took this as a
sign of disrespect and of the Zulu's utter depravity. In the show, a Zulu
medicine man explained that the Zulus believed that if a person dies
suddenly and violently, their soul does not have time to escape and becomes
trapped in the body. Therefore, if your defeated foe was honorable, it was
a matter of duty and a sign of respect that you disembowel him -- thus
setting his soul free.
Date: Jul 19 2001 17:20:23 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: questions
In a message dated 7/18/01 7:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jalthouse@bfaz.org
writes:<< In the show, a Zulu medicine man explained that the Zulus believed
that if a person dies suddenly and violently, their soul does not have time to
escape and becomes trapped in the body. Therefore, if your defeated foe was
honorable, it was a matter of duty and a sign of respect that you disembowel
him -- thus setting his soul free. >>Precisely the kind of thing involved with
the hasta'akala. As an anthropologist, I was aware of how many times what looks
like depravity from an outsider's point of view might by good manners from an
insider's. One of the things I wanted to do with Children of God was to turn the
story around, and see it from the "alien" p.o.v. Just as with my human characters,
Supaari was doing the best he could in an unprecedented situation, and he meant
no harm. Misunderstandings and tragedies are almost inherent in a first contact
situation. You can't know what you're wrong about until the wrongness bites you
in the butt. You aren't being deliberately mistaken! If you read the old style
ethnographies from the 1920s and 30s, you get a feel for what it's like to make
first contact. There is a tendency to assume that you understand something, until
it's demonstrated to you that you don't. As Sandoz says in CoG, "Everything we
thought we shared, everything we thought we understood--food, sex, family, music
--that was what we were most wrong about." My goal for the alien culture was to
make it as complete and realistic as I could, but to base it on a fundamentally
different biological and economic system. --MDR
Date: Jul 19 2001 17:20:24 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: questions
In a message dated 7/18/01 7:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jalthouse@bfaz.org
writes:<< Ian "innocently" asks: > Who bears the responsibility for what occurs
on Rakhat? God ;-) >>Silly. It was me! --MDR
Date: Jul 19 2001 17:20:24 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: what happened to San Francisco
In a message dated 7/18/01 7:27:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us
writes:<< I found this almost off-hand comment fascinating. I know what happened
to Beirut, and Sarajevo ... but what happened to San Francisco? I didn't see any
other clues in the book. Though perhaps she is saying something has already
happened? But I don't think so. >>Big laughs!!! I gotcha! That was just a
throw-away line that I used to tell you, "Some future has happened here,
Gentle Reader!" I also said that Sofia had been caught up in the "second
Kurdish war," primarily because I thought there could be a first Kurdish war
at any moment in (this is still a real possibility in Turkey), and I wanted to
muddy the waters a bit on this. There's always a risk that good science fiction
will become bad history, when reality moves quicker than a writer expects or when
it doesn't (see 2001 note in another message). But sometimes, you get lucky.
For example, when I was writing in 1992-3, Ann Richards was Governor of Texas,
and she was popular and seemed like she'd be a cinch for reelection. The
Republicans were so NOT in power at that time, all I did to generate a future
was to assume that the pendulum would swing the other way. So I had that line
about "a Republican from Texas was running for president, as usual," back when
the idea of that being true was absurd. And then there was that line about a
president from Texas who was "so dumb he couldn't poor water out a boot if the
instructions was on the heel." I will not comment further on that one, but I'm
sure more than a few readers were happy to apply it to current events... --MDR
Date: Jul 19 2001 17:20:24 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: 2001, 2019
In a message dated 7/18/01 6:59:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jschwuch@hotmail.com
writes:<< It was also interesting to read this and realize that 2019?? is not
really that far off, sort of like reading 1984 back in the early 60's and then
getting there??????? >>Ah. Yes. The dates. When I started writing The Sparrow,
it was 1992. To choose a date for the near future, I looked back at Arthur C.
Clarke's 2001, and went forward the same number of years as he did. So that's
how 2019 came about. Granted, 2019 sounded a whole lot further away ten years
ago than it does now. But really? I figured, Sir Arthur's projections for 2001
turned out to be wrong, and mine will be as well. We don't have moon colonies
now, and we won't have a well-established asteroid mining industry 18 years from
now. I'm not trying to be Nostradamus here.The reasons I chose near-future
instead of projecting out further is that I wanted Anne and George Edwards to
be rooted in my own time. They are about 10 years younger than my husband and
me, but there would still be cultural references (Van Halen...) that would work.
I could also gauge Emilio's cultural awareness by knowing that he would have been
born the same year as our friends' son Jeff was. You have to remember that I had
no notion that I was writing a novel at all, let alone an international
prize-winning bestseller that would still be selling well 5 years after
publication. No one is more surprised than I about how this has turned out.
I thought I was trying a short story, while waiting to get another contract as
a freelance technical writer, after my academic department was eliminated at
Case Western Reserve. So there were decisions based on purely goofy personal
things, like the dates on the chapter headings were always somebody's birthday
or anniversary. As it happened, so much time went by between when I finished the
first draft in 1993 and when it got published in 1996, I weeded a lot of the
cultural references out, and maybe I could have put the book a little further
into the future, to give it more calendric shelf life. But that would have meant
going through the whole manuscript AGAIN (the 61st time, and I am not making
that number up) to find and change all the dates. I just didn't have the heart
to do that. --MDR
Date: Jul 20 2001 22:39:15 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: 2001, 2019
In a message dated 7/20/01 12:00:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDRSparrow@aol.com
writes:<< younger than my husband and me, >>Whoops! my husband and I.
Date: Jul 26 2001 10:14:31 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: response from columnist/responsibility
I mentioned earlier that I emailed Nancy Pearl, the columnist who wrotethat The
Sparrow is "often mistakenly categorized as science fiction ...",asking if
perhaps she meant that it was a mistake to categorize it at all,and she wrote
back to say:"Yes, I meant what you thought I meant but you said it better - I
alwaysfeel that I have to overcome people's prejudices against sf when I talkabout
the plot of the book. To me it's more a novel of ideas, of good andevil, of
exploring what God's love means."She also said that she interviewed Mary right
after the book came out, andto say hi for her. So, Hi Mary!Also, I may have to
carry through on my threat to write a column for her. :0I have been thinking
about the question of responsibility in severaldifferent ways. I guess I think
that it's the larger social and/orreligious forces that really set themselves
up for taking the fall--theJesuits have had some bad experiences before, but
they didn't learn enoughto know that this sort of first contact situation was
NOT going to be"dinner at the Edwards' house," i.e. disparate cultures with a
common rootcoming together in friendship--Orson Scott Card's notion in "Speaker
forthe Dead" of different levels of alien-ness is an interesting one to
applyhere: there are no "varelse" in The Sparrow (intelligent aliens with whichno
conversation is possible), and I would say that both the Runa andJana'ata are
"ramen" (strangers we recognize as human, but of anotherspecies).However, this
is a fine distinction, since with any alien species and evenwithin our OWN
species, there can be moments of such misunderstanding thateverything falls
apart--even though everyone is trying their best. Speakerfor the Dead examines
themes similar to those in The Sparrow--an alienspecies tortures one of the
scientists that is studying them, and themystery of why they did it (and the
theological and social implications ofthe act) is the main plot of the book
(which I highly recommend--it's arare case of a sequel being an order of magnitude
better than the firstbook, which was Ender's Game, and Ender's Game is darn
good).So: The Jesuits are to blame! Or: God is to blame for putting
tantalizingalien species on a planet so close to Earth (heh, heh).--IanIan
McKinney Tippecanoe County Public LibraryYoung Adult
Librarian 627 South Street(765) 429-0121
Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us
fax: (765) 429-0150http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 27 2001 09:07:48 EDT
From: Jon Althouse
Subject: Anne's Conversion
What do you make of Anne's conversion? There's no question that the eventsup to
that point, and just being around Sandoz, had her on a spiritual high.But when it
came to it, she appears to tell Sandoz what had been keeping herfrom faith: She
finds a philosophy where God gets credit for good thingsthat happen and lays
blame for bad things that happen totally unsatisfying.Sandoz says something like:
If that's all that's keeping you from the faith,then I give you permission to
blame God for the bad stuff. So: Did she actually convert her belief about God?
Or was she already abeliever in God who converted her belief about the Church?
Or did bothconversions occur over the course of the book?
Date: Jul 28 2001 19:51:59 EDT
From: Jon Althouse
Subject: RE: response from columnist/responsibility
I like your subject line - Response and Responsibility - sounds like thetitle
to a long-lost Jane Austen novel.> I have been thinking about the question of
responsibility in several> different ways. I guess I think that it's the larger
social and/or> religious forces that really set themselves up for taking the
fall--the> Jesuits have had some bad experiences before, but they didn't learn
enough> to know that this sort of first contact situation was NOT going to be>
"dinner at the Edwards' house," i.e. disparate cultures with a common root>
coming together in friendship--I think they did know that it was not "dinner
at the Edwards'." They didn'tknow the exact form the disaster would take, but
they were aware it could bea disaster for both themselves and the Rakhati.
I believe someone commentsbefore they set out about how they might die from some
kind of exposure*, orbe murdered, or infect the Rakhati with some virus against
which they haveno protection, etc. They just decided that it was worth the risk.
Obviously, there was a bit of hubris in deciding the risk was worth it forthe
Rakhati as well as for themselves.* Speaking of dying from some kind of exposure,
I was so glad in CoG whenthat guy has a violent allergic reaction. It just
strikes me as somethingthat should occur often in interplanetary travel, but
almost never does inSF. Of course, I'm not that widely read (esp. not much
SF from the last10-15 years), so maybe I'm just reading in the wrong places.>
However, this is a fine distinction, since with any alien species and even>
within our OWN species, there can be moments of such misunderstanding that>
everything falls apart--even though everyone is trying their best.Speaker>
for the Dead examines themes similar to those in The Sparrow--an alien> species
tortures one of the scientists that is studying them, and the> mystery of why
they did it (and the theological and social implications of> the act) is the
main plot of the book (which I highly recommend--it's a> rare case of a sequel
being an order of magnitude better than the first> book, which was Ender's Game,
and Ender's Game is darn good).> So: The Jesuits are to blame! Or: God
is to blame for puttingtantalizing> alien species on a planet so close to
Earth (heh, heh).That's the downside to omniscience, I suppose. If you give
your creaturesfree will, then you're to blame for everything they do - "Why'd
You give HIMfree will (instead of just me)?"With the Jesuits, the question is
whether we're talking about blame as incause or blame as in moral guilt
(being blameworthy). As I said, they putthe Rakhati at risk by their presence
and to decide to do that withoutconstitutes a certain degree of presumption.
However, I really don't feelthere is much moral guilt to put on their shoulders,
collectively orindividually. They did as well as they knew how to minimize
the risks tothe Rakhati as well as themselves.Coming from a Christian
perspective, I'd say 'God weighs the heart' - andtheir hearts were in
(or at least very close to) the right place. Why's there gotta be "blame"
anyway? This is something Sandoz confrontsVoelker(?) [I can't remember his
name] with. "We planted gardens. THERE'sour big mistake. You've been
waiting for it -- well, there it is." "Youdon't want to know." "I don't
want to be responsible for telling you."(those are all misquotes from memory,
but he conveys similar sentiments).It's not just that he doesn't want to tell
What Happened. What he doesn'twant to tell is that no one was to blame -
that God was to blame, or God wasnot in control.We readers, like V. and
Guiliani, want to say "here's where the blame lies"to preserve our sense of
justice - whether we're preserving our sense of ajust God (or a just MDR ;-)
or simply preserving some sense of order in theuniverse. The book ends up
giving an "answer" similar to what Job got -you're a Creature, some answers
you don't get. I've rambled long enough.Blessings,Jon
Date: Jul 28 2001 20:45:42 EDT
From: "Jennifer E. McKinney"
Subject: cultivate our garden
I had been in a nonfiction stretch for awhile now, and was thoroughlypleased
to be engaged in The Sparrow. I have enjoyed following the BookClique commentary
as well, and wish to mention:Reading The Sparrow has spurred me to reread
Voltaire's Candide.Cultivating a garden is what precipitated a horrible chain of
events inThe Sparrow, yet for Candide the idea of "cultivating his garden" mademore
sense than his incredibly difficult if humorous adventure. Pangloss' idea that all
events are linked together logically in the best of allpossible worlds sounds a lot
like turtles on fenceposts to me; yet Ibelieve that for Candide, "cultivating his
garden" was more like mindinghis own business than setting off on an adventure
(albeit his was confinedto good ol' planet Earth).So I guess that if Candide had
been working at the Arecibo dish, he mightnever have been considered as an
asteroid-mate? Then again, Optimismwasn't Candide's middle name, huh?Jen
Date: Jul 31 2001 12:58:24 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anne's Conversion
In a message dated 7/27/01 9:02:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jalthouse@bfaz.org
writes:<< What do you make of Anne's conversion? There's no question that the
events up to that point, and just being around Sandoz, had her on a spiritual
high. But when it came to it, she appears to tell Sandoz what had been keeping
her from faith: She finds a philosophy where God gets credit for good things
that happen and lays blame for bad things that happen totally unsatisfying.
Sandoz says something like: If that's all that's keeping you from the faith,
then I give you permission to blame God for the bad stuff. So: Did she
actually convert her belief about God? Or was she already a believer in God
who converted her belief about the Church? Or did both conversions occur over
the course of the book? >>In my mind, Anne remained an honest agnostic. As Marc
Robichaux said, we all have to own up to being agnostic: we cannot know the
unknowable. Anne was willing to take questions of faith seriously, and she
understood her own resistance to faith well enough to recognize what constituted
the greatest barrier to faith for her. Unlike her husband George, Anne was never
indifferent to religion, but probably left the Church when she was young, and
never reconsidered that decision until she met Emilio. She came to love him,
and trusted his intellect, and it was important to her to understand why a guy
like that would be willing to "give up something so fundamental for something
so abstract." So he gave her both a motive for revisiting the questions of faith
as an adult, and also a theological formulation that got her past one of her own
barriers. She might well have become more comfortable with God, but she died too
soon for that to occur. One of the ironies of the story... --MDR
Date: Jul 31 2001 16:14:12 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: rating The Sparrow
Okay, people, I've been informed that it is tradition to rate the bookwe've
been discussing on a scale of one to five.For me, any book that makes my
personal top ten list gets a 5!--IanIan McKinney
Tippecanoe County Public LibraryYoung Adult Librarian
627 South Street(765) 429-0121
Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us
fax: (765) 429-0150http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Jul 31 2001 16:21:07 EDT
From: Ian McKinney
Subject: Oops--rating The Sparrow revisited
Sorry people, I forgot: I was asked by Sarah Brown to have you send the
ratings for The Sparrow to the new address! That address is:
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.usSo anyway, I give it a 5. Wonder how the author
will rate it? ;)--IanIan McKinney
Tippecanoe County Public LibraryYoung Adult Librarian
627 South Street(765) 429-0121
Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us
fax: (765) 429-0150http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
Date: Aug 01 2001 10:08:28 EDT
From: BkFun999@aol.com
Subject: Rating the Sparrow
On a scale of 1 to 5, I definitely rate this book as a five and a half!
(I just can't give a six to a book that makes my hand shake when I close
the back cover.) I enjoyed the characters, was driven mad waiting to know
what had happened, enjoyed all of the "delays" getting to the answer, and
was almost knocked out of my chair at the end. My only true frustration with
this book was not having someone to share it with. It's the kind of book that
you can't bring yourself to tell someone too much about and take the chance of
spoiling their experience. I read it well over a year ago, so waited a bit
long for this discussion! It was quite a thrill to have the author included in
the discussion as well. To whomever caused THAT to happen: Thank You!!
Date: Aug 01 2001 18:46:15 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: rating The Sparrow
In a message dated 7/31/01 4:12:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:<< Okay, people, I've been informed that it is
tradition to rate the book we've been discussing on a scale of one to five.
For me, any book that makes my personal top ten list gets a 5! >>Thank you
very much, Ian. And thanks for getting BookClique to read The Sparrow. It's
been fun responding to the comments. All the best,Mary Doria Russell
Date: Aug 01 2001 18:46:16 EDT
From: MDRSparrow@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rating the Sparrow
In a message dated 8/1/01 10:07:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
BkFun999@aol.com writes:<< On a scale of 1 to 5, I definitely rate this book as
a five and a half! (I just can't give a six to a book that makes my hand shake
when I close the back cover.)>>Well, thank you very much. I have to admit,
I was nervous when I saw the subject heading, so I'm delighted that you liked
the book that much. >> My only true frustration with this book was not having
someone to share it with. >>One of the funniest things I heard about the book,
early on, was a comment from a bookseller who said that the minute she finished
The Sparrow, she made two friends read it. "I needed a support group." One of
the miracles of this experience for me has been the word-of-mouth by readers and
booksellers. So if you finally decide to tell a friend, you have my thanks in
advance! Wait. I just got this from another fan, not on the BookClique list:>>
Ms. Russell:At the urging of a book-aholic friend, my wife - a librarian, mother
andequally cursed book-aholic - read The Sparrow. She devoured your novelin two
days and I was told, "You have to read this book. Period." I did. What a
great story. Our dinner conversations have never beenlivelier! Many thanks.
We are now somehow managing to concurrently read CoG!Cheers,Kevin ColemanPortland,
Oregon>>See? So you don't have to tell people much. You just have to say,
"Read this. Don't argue with me." :) MDR
Date: Aug 01 2001 23:23:57 EDT
From: "Lew Starkey"
Subject: the Sparrow
I thought this book was good. I am not the intellect some seem to be on this
site,but I did enjoy reading it. At my library it was also in the fiction section
and not science fiction. The end was a surprise, I did feel sorry for Sanchez. Oh
all the characters in this book why was he the one to survive God's Will????
From: Book Clique
Subject: MDR
Hi people,
Parting words from Mary Doria Russell:
"Thanks to everyone who gave the book a chance, even if they
weren't so happy about trying science fiction. It was fun getting the
comments, and responding to them. Watch for A Thread of Grace next year!
--MDR"
(Remember, A Thread of Grace is historical fiction, not science fiction!)
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
ianmck@tcpl.lib.in.us fax: (765) 429-0150
http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/ya/
To: bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject:
Okay. I had to go outside of my comfort zone to read this. I usually read
other types of fiction. I would also have to rate it a 5. I kept coming
back to it and couldn't wait to see what would happen. Also told a friend
that I share books with to read it. She went away this past weekend with
the book, and I am anxious to hear her opinion. Thanks MDR for responding
to all of our discussions.
To: bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:53:21 -0500
Subject: note from a friend
X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11
From: susanne A Fletcher
I just wanted to let you know that I finished reading the book. It broke
my heart, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Thank you so much for
letting me know of its existence! :)
Also after looking in three bookstores I finally found The Children of God.
I'm going to read it on my way to work.
>From: BkFun999@aol.com
>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:33:02 EDT
>Subject: Rating The Sparrow
>To: bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us
>X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10532
>
> (I
>just can't give a six to a book that makes my hand shake when I close the
>back cover.)
>
>I enjoyed the characters, was driven mad waiting to know what had happened,
>enjoyed all of the "delays" getting to the answer, and was almost knocked
out
> My only true frustration with this book was not
> It's the kind of book that you can't bring
>yourself to tell someone too much about and take the chance of spoiling
their
> I read it well over a year ago, so waited a bit long for this
>discussion!
>
>
> Thank You!!
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Bridget Jones's Diary
From: Book Clique
Subject: Bridget Jones's Diary
Welcome to the August discussion of "Bridget Jones's Diary" by Helen
Fielding.
"Bridget Jones's Diary" originally ran as a weekly column in a British
newspaper. It is now a bestselling novel with a sequel and a movie. Many
people see parallels with Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice." What do you
think?
Listed below are several critical reviews. Do you agree?
"This year in the life of a single woman is closely observed and
laugh-out-loud funny... Fielding's diarist raises prickly insecurities to
an art form, turns bad men into good anecdotes, and shows that it is
possible to have both a keen eye for irony and a generous heart."
-Kirkus Reviews
"Screamingly funny."
-USA Today
"Bridget Jones is channeling something so universal and (horrifyingly)
familiar that readers will giggle and sigh with collective delight."
-Elle
"Good-bye Rules Girls, hello Singletons...Endearingly engaging."
-The New York Times Book Review
"Hilarious but poignant."
-The Washington Post
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:35:20 -0500
To: Book Clique
From: Sarah Brown
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones's Diary
I thought that this book was extremely funny...very ironic. Especially the
journaling of weight, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. I don't know how many
times I have started a New Year's Diet Plan in which I was supposed to
record similar stats. I laughed at myself as well as Bridget.
I enjoyed the "Britishisms" in the book. There were a few I didn't
understand though - What is "spag bog"? On Tuesday 19 September..."Gav had
cooked spag bog." I have others - but I can't find my list right now.
Sarah
From: Book Clique
Subject: Bridget Jones's Diary
Not a lot of discussion going on about Bridget and her diary...
This book is *loosly* structured on Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice."
Did you find the ending too much of a cliche to be believable?
Did you enjoy the diary format? Was it as satisfying and as easy to read
as a conventionally structured novel?
Did you find Bridget to be witty and endearing or self-centered and a whiner?
To post to the list, just "reply" or send your post to
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us .
From:
To: "Book Clique"
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones's Diary
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:08:14 -0500
----- Original Message -----
> This book is *loosly* structured on Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice."
> Did you find the ending too much of a cliche to be believable?
No comparison!
> Did you enjoy the diary format? Was it as satisfying and as easy to read
> as a conventionally structured novel?
The diary format was hard to get used to at first. The author did a good
job making the book "flow" in this format. However, it did not make me want
to keep a diary :-)
From: judy schwuchow [mailto:jschwuch@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:35 AM
To: bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones's Diary
With school starting, etc., I didn't get much response time. I laughed when
I read parts of the book. The diary format was okay. I've read other books
like this or letters to people would be similar. I would rate it a 3. I
think I would like to see what they did with it as a movie. As you can tell
I didn't go to see it.
From: Jillaine Shoop [mailto:jshoop@tcpl.lib.in.us]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:05 AM
To: Book Clique
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones' Diary
I was half way through the book before a friend told me that it was funny.
Then I stopped wondering why a non-teen would behave so childishly. Maybe
a movie would have been better. The book was tedious for me since she
refused to exercise common sense...never shown as a child?...at each
decision to be made. In fact, I would have felt better if she had made
conscious decisions rather than lamenting over her poor life. Her life
was pathetic because of her lack of common sense! Poor judgement = poor
life. She never seemed to learn from decisons made, rather, she hoped it
would get better without her efforts.
I would not recommend this to any reader. Why was it so funny for some of
you? I don't get it.
From: kjthomps@purdue.edu [mailto:kjthomps@purdue.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:01 AM
To: Book Clique
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones's Diary
I was disappointed. I finished in one sitting and I
really did not read it- I merely skimmed. Its sad that
a great classic like Pride and Prejudice has been
associated with this. I really don't understand the
hype around it.
From:
To: "Book Clique"
Subject: Re: Bridget Jones's Diary
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:00:48 -0500
I rate the book a 2. It had its funny moments but mostly Bridget came off
as self centered and whiney. The ending was a bit clichéd - very pat and
predictable. Her mom was a character - very over the top.
back to top
Open House
To: Book Clique
Subject: OPEN HOUSE
Hello Book Clique members:
Our book for this month is Open House by Elizabeth Berg. We apologize for
getting started a bit late, but we have been trying to work out some technical
details of the new software we are using to run the discussion group. We
appreciate your patience.
Elizabeth Berg has been writing novels since 1993. Her list of works includes:
Durable Goods, Joy School, Talk Before Sleep, Range of Motion, Open House,
and, just released this summer, Never Change. Several of her works have won
literary awards and several have made Best Seller lists. Her writing has been
described as funny, tender, lyrical stories about women's lives and friendships.
Open House, which was selected as an Oprah Book is 2000, is probably Berg's
most commercially successful work.
Our library was fortunate in having Elizabeth Berg for an author visit in the
fall of 1996. We found her to be a charming lady and an inspiring speaker.
For those of you who are reading Berg for the first time, you have a real treat
in store.
Let's just start the discussion generally. Tell us what you think about this
very moving book.
Date: Thu, Sep 13 2001 17:37:53 GMT-0500
From: mboyden@carmel.lib.in.us (Mary Boyden)
Subject: Re: OPEN HOUSE
I recommended this book to my sister-in-law who went through a similar divorce
scenario. Elizabeth Berg's characterization of the emotions Sam goes through
as she navigates this personal disaster rang true for me, but I wanted to get
someone's "been there" opinion of the book. She agreed and, like me, found
Sam's sense of humor touching.
Mary Boyden
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sarah Brown
Subject: Open House
"Open House" is a prior selection for Oprah's book
club. I have to admit that I am an Oprah snob. If a
book was chosen for her book club I tend to avoid it
thinking that it is depressing and bleak. No
lectures, please I read a lot, just not "those sorts
of books." I now have to revise my opinion. "Open
House" is a truly magnificent novel! It is tender and
heartbreaking at moments yet you find yourself
laughing out loud a few pages later. Your heart hurts
for Sam and her son…their vulnerability and their
pain.
Berg's writing style is very poetic at times. The
whole Martha Stewart thing was a bit surreal.
A few passages that really touched me or made me
think:
When Sam sees through the mask that her mother has
worn since her husband's death. Each of us deal with
loss differently. We wear different masks and try to
put our best face forward. It is not easy there is
pain behind the mask.
When Sam, her mom and Lydia are sitting around the
table (near the end of the novel), Sam's mom states
that "most young people today are so focused on
tomorrow they forget all about today. And I think
they're as afraid of happiness as they are of pain?
Scared to say they care." I think this happens a lot.
We forget to take time to smell the flowers.
Happiness is such a rare thing.
When you realize you love someone while you're ironing
his shirt (as Sam's mom discovered) it is pretty
amazing. It's not because you're ironing his shirt (I
personally HATE to iron) but it is the "simple act of
doing a favor for the one you love."
And the last line: "We are full of faith, blessed by
it. I remember now."
This is a wonderfully uplifting novel. My life is
richer for having read it.
Sarah Brown
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:29:40 EDT
From: Jeaore@cs.com
Subject: Re: Open House
I must have been in an unreceptive mood when I read this book, because I was
really impatient with Samantha. What was she thinking? She was blindsided
by her husband's leaving? So she spent $12,000 at Tiffany's? And threw
herself at him first chance she got? And pretended to be Martha Stewart's
classmate? (I don't buy the fact that Martha would call in response to
that.) And cooked a 21-pound turkey for Thanksgiving, with noone in sight to
help her eat it? And I didn't like the ending. When her husband decided he
wanted to come back, she said no thanks. Well, she could have reunited the
family, gotten her son's father back, and probably had him eating out of her
hand! As I said, I must not have been in the mood for Samantha.
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:13:08 -0500
From: Book Clique
Subject: Open House
One interesting thing I read recently was that Berg did not start out to
write a book about divorce. Her original idea was to write about a woman
who took in borders (hence the title Open House) and then she decided to
use the context of a divorce as a reason that a woman would take in borders.
However, Berg writes with such resonance about the painful experience of
splitting up that I think that the divorce theme overshadows the borders
theme. Although Berg says that this book is not about her own divorce,
she did go through that experience in the mid-1990s. For me, that adds
even more poignancy to this story.
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:02:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Jillaine Shoop
Subject: Re: Open House
That makes sense that she began the book focusing on the boarders. I do
wish she had gone more into detail of the boarders and how she and her son
changed because of their existance. I'm certain that they changed.
This book seemed to have a more realistic view of divorce than most
romance novels. This author waited until the end of the book for the
female to leap into bed. This character needed to learn independence
before having another relationship, especially one outside of marriage. I
was pleased that the author let the woman learn to survive a bit before
the next relationship began.
I wish she had gone into more depth on the son's reaction to the divorce,
her dating, the boarders,etc. I did not enjoy the end of the book. I
thought she could have created more dignified options for the divorced
woman. Choosing to not have a relationship with her former husband was
the catalist to many options. Going to bed in such a fashion seemed
trashy for a woman learning to become independent. I would have prefered
many classier options for her. I also would have wanted the mother to
discuss her decision about the man (forgotten his name) with her son. The
decision will definitely impact the son's life, and yet, he was left out.
Abandoned by his father and now by his mother? Yes, I'm old-fashioned. I
think that children have a different view of life. Including the children
in such huge decisions is important, yet, not the final factor. The
eventual marriage will probably be great. Why not include the son?
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:51:33
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Unknown
I guess I have just read several of her books, and I have appreciated most
of them. The Pull of the Moon was a little strange, I kept wondering what
was wrong with her. Again, as with this character, I couldn't appreciate
all of her actions. Yet I don't know what I would do in a similar
situation. Scary what trauma like this can make people do. Berg seems to
have a grasp of people, and makes you question how you would react. In
response to the Oprah comment, I have read most of her books. Many of them
have been books that I might not have read otherwise, and to paraphrase
someone from a couple of months ago, yes I know this will haunt that
person, "we need to read things out of our comfort range", and I feel that
this program and Oprah, and the book club that meets at the library have
expanded my reading range. Thanks.
To: Book Clique
Subject: Rating Open House
It's time to rate Open House. The rating is 0 to 5, with 5 being the highest
rating. Tell us what you think!
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2001 11:42:06 GMT-0500
From: mboyden@carmel.lib.in.us (Mary Boyden)
Subject: Re: Rating Open House
I give Open House a 4.5. I've recommended it to a number of others who also
enjoyed it.
Mary Boyden
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:27:04 -0500
From: Sarah Brown
Subject: Re: Rating Open House
I rate it a 5!
I agree with a recent post about reading outside our "comfort range". I
have read many books for this group that I would not have read
otherwise...and I enjoyed most of them :0)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 03:26:57
From: "judy schwuchow"
Subject: Re: Rating Open House
I would rate it a 4.5. It was very interesting. I have read many of her
books, and this was one of the better ones.
back to top
Frankenstein
To: Book Clique
Subject: Frankenstein
Welcome to October's discussion of Mary Shelley's classic, "Frankenstein".
If you are thinking about not reading this month's selection because you think
you already know the story, let me change your mind. Forget all the movies you
have seen of a lumbering dumb monster with bolts in the side of his head. This
book is not about a monster, it is about the darker side of human nature, about
our greed and predjudice. Consider the following from the beginning of the story:
"'I thank you,' he replied, 'for your sympathy, but it is useless; my fate is
nearly fulfilled. I wait but for one event, and then I shall repose in peace.
I understand your feeling, ' continued he, perceiving that I wished to interrupt
him; 'but you are mistaken my friend, if thus you will allow me to name you;
nothing can alter my destiny: listen to my history, and you will perceive how
irrevocably it is determined."
Shelley was only nineteen when she wrote this story, but I think she wrote with
great maturity. What role, if any, do you think her age played in the creation
of this story?
To: Book Clique
Subject: Frankenstein
Interesting note:
The original title of this book is "Frankenstein: or the modern
Prometheus". We may learn more about what Shelley wanted to say with
"Frankenstein" by examining the Prometheus myth. The myth contains two main
elements. The first says that Prometheus brought down fire from the sun for
mankind and was punished by Zeus. The second says that Prometheus either
created or recreated mankind by animating a figure of clay. These two myths
became fused in the second or third century A.D. The fire that he stole
became what he used to animate the clay. The Prometheus myth has
traditionally been used as a metaphor for the creative artist. Shelley did a
unique thing by applying the myth to a scientist creating life. She even
incorporated the fire of the sun as the electricity used to infuse life into
the creature. Scholars have debated the significance of this. As an artist,
Prometheus is the best idea of creation because art is not constrained by
reality. But, as a scientist, Prometheus is an imperfect God.
Shelley wrote this during the birth of modern science. She mentions
scientific advances and Darwin in her introduction. This was a time of great
hope and fear of what the future would bring. How are these hopes and fears
played out in the book?
To: Book Clique
Subject: Frankenstein
Frankenstein cautions Walton against seeking knowledge too earnestly
because of the results it may have. Frankenstein to Walton, "Unhappy man!
Do you share my madness? Have you drunk also of the intoxicating
drought? Hear me, let me reveal my tale, and you will dash the cup from
your lips." Victor advises Walton that, "I ardently hope that the
gratification of your wishes may not be a serpent to you, as mine
has." During the time of the Industrial Age, it was feared that the use of
technology, could lead to disaster if not checked by man. Today, scientist
have succeeded in cloning a sheep. What will be the long term consequences
of this? I don't think just because science can do something, that it
should be done without considering the consequences.
back to top
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:29:38 -0500
From: Moderator
Subject: Book Clique Best of 2001
We have set aside December for Book Clique members to share titles that they
feel are the "Best of 2001". Titles can be fiction, non-fiction, adult, young
adult, etc.
Here are a few questions to get the discussion started:
Tell us what have you read this year that has been outstanding?
What books are you giving as gifts?
What books are on your Christmas list?
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:25:30 EST
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
I'll be buying "Red Tent" for a few of my friends this year, but my favorite
gift books are chicken soup style or inspirational type books.
My personal favorites in fiction that I read this year were "Red Tent" by
Diamant, "Prodigal Summer" by Barbara Kingsolver, "Breathing Lessons" by Anne
Tyler, "Setting Fires" by Kate Wenner, and "A Walk to Remember" by Nicholas
Sparks.
I bumped into the historical fiction title "Gates of Fire" by Steven
Pressfield and what a find! I don't normally read this type of book, but
once I started, I could NOT put it down. And Lance Armstrong's autobiography
called "It's Not About the Bike" was a fabulous read as well.
Best young adult I've read this year was "Among the Hidden" by Margaret
Peterson Haddix. The kind of book that makes you absolutely ITCH for a
sequel, which is exactly what I want my kids reading! I also thoroughly
enjoyed "Mick Harte Was Here" by Barbara Park. This book has been around for
quite awhile, but depending on what page you are on, you are either laughing
out loud or crying. "Holes" by Louis Sachar is NOT to be missed as well.
Christmas for my twelve year old, the two latest in the "Series of
Unfortunate Events" titles by Lemony Snicket. Reading these books myself
drives me crazy, but he just loves them. I will admit the author has a
hilarious way of explaining word definitions to youngsters. Also "Preacher's
Boy" by Katherine Paterson. I haven't read this one, but she wrote "Bridge
to Terabithia" so I'm gambling on her. Will Hobbs' "The Maze" is another
good one.
Christmas for my seven year old, it will be "Junie B. First Grader at Last!"
by Barbara Park. He loves the Junie B. series, so this one is a perfect fit.
He will also be receiving the "2001 Guiness Book of World Records" because
he has been asking for it for months. If I win the amazon.com wish list
giveaway (smile, smile), he'll also be receiving an entire set of Nature's
Children fact books about animals - he devours the ones I can get my hands
on. Plus the entire series of "If You Lived When" or "If You Were There
When" books, like If You Were There When They Signed the Constitution or If
You Lived with the Cherokee.
My Christmas list for myself - wow! Anne Tyler's "Back When We Were
Grownups" and "If Morning Ever Comes" (the only 2 titles of hers that I don't
own yet), any and all books to complete my collections of Newbery Award
Winners, Beatlesongs, and Colin Powell's autobiography. And as long as I'm
dreaming here, how about one of Santa's elves tracks down Pat Conroy and
persuades him to write another novel. He'll never top "Beach Music" but I'd
love to see him try!
May all of my fellow readers have a warm, peaceful, and loving Christmas
season. It has been fun reading your comments this year. Readers are some
of my favorite kind of people!!
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:29:33 EST
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
How about one more category? Strangest book we read this year!
"The Mouse and His Child" by Russell Hoban has been put back into print. The
fact that it was out of print and brought back captured my attention. I am
two-thirds of the way through it, and I am stunned by what I have read so
far. For a guy known and loved for "Bread and Jam for Frances" this book is
DIFFERENT to put it mildly. I haven't decided whether my seven year old will
get to read this one or not. One thing for sure, a comment on the back cover
that says "the images from this book will forever be sharp in your mind" is
NO understatement.
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:27:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
Tell us what have you read this year that has been outstanding?
Hannibal, Seabiscuit, and Holy Road
What books are you giving as gifts?
All That Remains, Buffalo for the Broken Heart, Holy Road
What books are on your Christmas list?
The Complete Recreation Guide to Public Lands in Colorado
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:32:49 EST
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
1. The best book I read this year was "The Sparrow", thanks to the Book
Clique. Many thanks to whoever recommended it, because I never would have
found it by myself.
2. This Christmas I'm giving my daughter "Portrait in Sepia" by Isabel
Allende because she and I both enjoyed "Daughter of Fortune". I (carefully)
read it before I wrapped it, and once again Ms. Allende has written a
wonderful tale that teaches some history but really is about a unique set of
characters.
Jean O'Reilly
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:26:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
>1. The best book I read this year was "The Sparrow", thanks to the Book
>Clique. Many thanks to whoever recommended it, because I never would have
>found it by myself.
That would be me! You're welcome--I'm always glad when I manage to bring a
book into someone's reading sphere that might not have gotten there another
way. And I agree, Book Clique is one of the ways that happens!
Ian
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:00:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
One of the best books I read this year was "Open
House" by Elizabeth Berg. In a similar style - "Bread
Alone" by Judith Ryan Hendricks was very good.
This year I also discovered the Stephanie Plum series
by Janet Evanovich - "One for the Money," "Two for the
Dough,"..."Seven Up." Any/all of these are on my
Christmas list.
Linda Howard also came out with "Open Season" -
featuring a librarian as the main character :-)
Books I am giving as gifts include:
"A Reader's Journal" - a journal where you record
thoughts on books you read.
"Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight" - by
Scott Beatty. The publisher is DK and it is an
absolutely beautifully illustrated book.
"Dogzilla" - a kids picture book but any true dog
lover (like myself) will love the humor - Dogzilla, a
Welsh Corgi, rises from a volcano and invades
Mousopolis. This is also on MY Christmas list.
"One for the Money" by Janet Evanovich - a laugh out
loud mystery about an out of work woman who takes a
temporary position as Bounty Hunter for her cousin
Vinnie.
"Am I Pig Enough for You Yet?" - a collection of
photos from a farm with poems to match. Very funny!
"Stranger in the Woods" - another children's picture
book. A snowman appears in the woods and the woodland
animals react. Includes a recipe for the snowman.
Great photographs.
"The Night Before Dogmas" - yet another children's
book. About St. Bernard (Santa) and his gift of homes
to pound pups.
I may think of more later...
Happy Holidays to all!
Sarah
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Book Clique Best of 2001
My favorite for non-fiction for this year is Seabiscuit by Laura
Hillenbrand. She is a fantastic writer.
I highly recommend this book for its historical research, writing style,
and all those exciting elements of a book - suspense, description, etc. I
eagerly look forward to her next book. Extremely talented woman!
My favorite fiction book for this year is Balzac and the Little Chinese
Seamstress by Sijie Dai. The story takes place during the Chinese Cultural
Revolution. This book demonstrates the power of literature to change the
lives of people. Excellent read! I am a big fan of international authors.
I cannot wait for his next book...Very talented writer!
My Christmas list deals mainly with New York photo essay collections.
back to top
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:16:34 -0500
From: moderator
Subject: The Wind Done Gone by Alice Randall
Happy New Year! The January selection for Book Clique is "The Wind Done Gone"
by Alice Randall. It also seems like a good description for the year 2001.
America thought we were safe until we heard from the people that move on the
margins of America. "The Wind Done Gone" is from the point-of-view Scarlett
O'Hara's mulatto half-sister, Cynara. This book was in a legal battle that
accused Randall of "wholesale theft of major characters." What do you think
of this parody of "Gone With the Wind"? Do you think it is sacrilegious
retelling of a literary classic, a sequel or a parody to try to settle the
score of the wrongs of the slaves?
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:24:27 -0600
Subject: the wind done gone
I really liked this book. The author has said it is about freedom and I felt
that was true throughout the book. I read Toni Morrison's questions that she
asked in court: "Who controls how history is imagined? Who gets to say what
slavery was like for the slaves?" She was right on target and I feel Randall
addressed the second question wonderfully.
Aside from that, her writing read like poetry and I found myself not wanting to
put the book down.
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: the wind done gone
I really enjoyed the book. I thought it was imaginative and I have to commend
her for deciding to use a book that is so well known and drawing inspiration
from that.
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:56:49 -0500
From: moderator
Subject: Wind Done Gone
I also enjoyed some of the language in the book.
Beauty gives Cynara a ring saying, "You can't take it, or steal it, or earn it.
But I can gift it to you. You can't pour all your water on a table and then
have a cup to drink. I'll by your cup."
Talking about the shade in the cemetery, "Nothing grows in the shade but names
and dates and ghosts. A low wall of flat stones piled one on top of the other,
a slave wall, hedges the ghost in, hedges the visitors out."
Anyone have any other passages that you liked?
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:19:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wind Done Gone
I was disappointed in the book. Part of my disappointment was in the
publicity about the book. I was so excited to hear the slave point of
view reference to Gone With The Wind book. The possibilities were
tremendous. When I picked up a very small book, I knew my hopes will not
be realized. The author could have taught us much about slavery in the
Civil War era. We could have learned so much and been reminded of much.
I seem to be the minority. I did not like the book. The writing style
and quality was not to my liking plus the disappointment of not reading
the slave point of view of the Gone With the Wind book. I saw little
relevance of The Wind Done Gone to Gone With The Wind.
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:20:15
Subject: Re: Wind Done Gone
Hi all,
I enjoyed the book. Maybe because it wasn't so long. I thought she did a good
job with it and enjoyed reading the words that she used. It wasn't as good a
Cane River by Tademy. I enjoyed it more and she gave a better accounting of
life and dreams of the slaves. Interestin reads, both.
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:20:15
It's time to rate "The Wind Done Gone". The rating is 0 to 5, with 5 being
the highest rating. Tell us what you think!
Also, you should be receiving the "Book Clique Survey" in your e-mail within
the next few days. We would appreciate it if you would take a few minutes to
respond and let us know what you think.
The February book to be discussed is "Tales of a Female Nomad: Living At Large
in the World" by Rita Golden Gelman.
Happy Reading!
Date: 30 Jan 2002
4
it had been so long since I read GWTW that I had to read a summary in Magill's
before I was sure I knew who all the characters were, but I enjoyed the different
perspective and the language once i got used to the style.
back to top
Tales of a Female Nomad
Hello!
I am your February moderator and we will be discussing "Tales of a Female
Nomad" by Rita Golden Gelman. The most exciting news is that Ms. Gelman
will be visiting the library on Friday, March 1 at 7 PM. She will also be
chatting online with us throughout the month.
One of the nicest things for me about his book is that it reminded me that
we really do have the power to make our life what we want it to be, in most
cases. It is easy to get caught up in the daily grind and think that's all
there is. Gelman is proof positive that we can live in an entirely
different way--and the choice is ours!
What struck you most about the book?
Hi readers--
Were there times during your reading when Rita was willing to do something
you thought you could not do yourself?
The scene that sticks in my mind is when she is in the Mexican village and
she slept in the same room as thousands of daddy-long-leg spiders. I don't
have a bid aversion to spiders, but I don't know if I could sleep if I
thought 1000's of spiders might be crawling on me.
What things in the book made you wonder if you could lead the nomadic
lifestyle Rita does?
I just finished reading Nomad and I have some thoughts. I wonder what it is
that draws people to the nomadic life, and what it is about reading about
those of us willing to take the jump into the unknown that makes me feel
wistful. Being a bit of a stranger in a strange land myself (an Eastern
Canadian, Quebecer, in the Midwest, and believe me, it is stranger than you
might think), I can relate to the feelings of disconnectedness that Rita
speaks about.
While I on some level envy the nomadic life, I don't think I could give up
the feeling of security I have with my home, my pet and my career. I want
to be part of a community in the sense of being there all the time, and
making connections with those who travel. I think I would prefer to be the
person welcoming a traveller to a home, rather than being the one who is
always looking to the horizon. I am a kind of person who gets a good deal
of satisfaction from a sense of place and being able to contribute to that
place.
Rita does contribute to all the places she travels too, but she tells
herself to move on before she has the need to become too close, when she
starts to lose her anthopological detachement. I found that aspect of her
travels to be interesting and disturbing for some reason that I haven't been
able to pin down yet.
Does anyone else feel odd about that self-imposed detachement? After all,
it only seems to come into play in cultures that are very different from the
US. She is not so worried about detachement in New Zealand or Vancouver.
Conrad Rader
I also felt that she had a feeling of detachment, but I didn't recognize that
until you gave it a name. Maybe it was more of a feeling that she really
couldn't get totally comfortable in a culture quite different than ours. If
she'd taken the time to, then maybe (especially at her age) she wouldn't get
to know nearly as many as she wanted to. I gather that there were a lot more
travels than she actually put into the book. I can say "at her age" because
I don't think she's too much older than I am. I think it's great that Rita
was able to find a new life she apparently loves, but it's sure not for me.
I think she can't help but be detached because she really doesn't belong to
any place long enough to be really connected. Not like having your own house
and friends and church (yes, and pets) that are daily constants. But I
really liked the message of the book - not that the nomadic life would be so
great but that it really is possible to shake your life up and go get some
new experiences even after years of living in familiar and comfortable ruts.
I especially liked (and could relate to) the part about being out of shape -
I guess not everything has to change in a new life! I'm looking forward to
meeting her on March 1.
I really liked this book. I admire a person who can totally leave a whole life
of American consumerism and Keeping-up-with-the-Joneses, divorced with 2.
whatever kids, car in the garage...to live native-style and try to be
non-judgemental. I had the chance and blew it. After college graduation I
lived with a family in a house on stilts on the outskirts of Bangkok. My hosts
told me that I could make my living teaching English. But I couldn't embrace or
ignore the mosquitoes, the dysentery, the 6 inch cockroaches jumping out of my
suitcases, and the daily battles along the borders. My Chinese neighbors here
say the same; Go live in China, teach English. The exotic beckons, but the
creature of comfort balks. I guess I'm not a Rita!
Check out for more interesting stuff.
Anne
As inspiring as I found the story of Rita's travels, I could not imagine
myself having similar adventures. I would be terrified.
I am approximately the same age that Rita was when she began this journey,
but I have opted for security and comfort in a comfortable town with many
retired people.
I am not challenged very often to live outside of the routines with
which I am so familiar.
Unfortunately my world and my sense of the larger world have become quite
small. Rita's world seems to be expansive and rich with experience.
I've often heard life described as a journey. The journey that Rita has
chosen is very different from the kind of journey that I am experiencing.
I enjoyed participating for a little while in her journey, and by doing
so, my journey has been changed. (if only in imagination.)
Ingrid
AUTHOR COMMENTS:
OK, I guess it's time to get involved, just a little, in the e-mail
discussion.
Perhaps I'm naive...or maybe I just don't get it. I felt very connected
with many of the people and places I visited. Especially Bali (where
I lived for around 8 years), New Zealand (one year), Nicaragua and
Guatemala (about 8 months each). I ate and cried and laughed with
families that I considered mine.
True, there were people I visited briefly, like the tribes in Irian
Jaya; but I thought of that trip as an opportunity to interact, however
briefly, with a world that I knew nothing about and wanted to touch.
..sort of like what most people would term a "vacation." My Thailand
trip to Ban Krud was only three weeks in residence, but I actually
felt quite close to Fon, Manit and the kids.
The "detachment" was certainly not on a personal level. My joy over
the years has always come from developing a close and familial feeling
for the families I meet and stay with. I feel close to the Servas
and e-mailers I'm staying with in this country and that's just for
two days. Those relationships are brief, but definitely not detached.
The detachment that Conrad refers to comes when I find myself in
conflict with the culture.
When I start getting the urge to tell people how to do things and
I have trouble holding back, I figure it's time to move on. I feel
the same way with my own blood-family. They need to live their own
lives, make their own mistakes, and find their own way in the world.
Doesn't mean I don't love them....nor does it mean that I feel
detached. Just that I sometimes feel so attached to my way of doing
things that I can't hold back and give them the freedom they need
to create their own paths.
I do, by the way, have a number of friends from high school and college
whom I am still very close to. Clearly people's definitions of friendship
and closeness differ. And each of us has different expectations of
life and how we want to live it. Bravo. That's how it should be.
Obviously neither Conrad nor the other e-mailer would want to live
my life.....which is fine with me. I am pleased that they are happy
in theirs. But the idea that one must have a home and pets and church
and daily routines is one that I'm not comfortable with. I feel
very much at home in many different settings and with many diverse
ways of life and shapes and colors of people. My security is within
and I bring my comfortable relationship with the world wherever I
go. I'm not sure how other people define "comfort" but for me, it's
feeling relaxed and close to the people I'm around. And that other
feeling of joy that often rushes through me when I feel accepted
into another culture or welcomed into a family, is hard to describe.
..but I love it.
I also have no particular agenda in terms of how many countries I
have visited......I prefer the depth to the numbers. In fifteen
years I visited fewer countries than many people do on a two week
vacation.
We can certainly carry on with this discussion when I'm in Lafayette.
I'm looking forward to my visit. I'm currently in North Carolina
working my way toward you. Thanks for choosing my book. I look
forward to meeting you all.
I will continue reading the discussion, but I may not have time to
contribute again. Thanks for including me.
Best, Rita
I loved the book! It was such an inspiring book- at the same time it made me
realise how boring my life is!
I especially enjoyed the section on Thailand, having had the oppurtunity to
visit there. I enjoyed the descriptions of the food and I could almost smell
and taste it.
It took an immense amount of courage to just pack up and leave and I really
commend her for that. The trip didn't start as a book- the book came out of the
journey.
I also think that luck was on her side! If I got off a plane in Bali I don't
think I would meet somebody who knew a prince.
Maybe one day I will have the strength to just give it all up and go.
Karen
I traveled a bit for twenty years. My husband was active duty military
and we moved approximately every three years. I loved learning about each
new location. Reading, meeting the "locals", resturants and local markets
were great. My view of the world expanded with each experience. I also
was different from the author because it was for a specific three year
period plus I had the security of a known military world which was the
same wherever we moved. My tolerance grew as I learned to look for
differences as well as similarities. I no longer travel and I miss it. I
would love to travel again. It was the extended stays that allowed/pushed
me to learn about where I was currently living. Some women hid in their
homes until they would move again. How sad to be so afraid as to be
housebound. Now when I read about the Buffalo Soldiers I remember
visiting the historical barracks where they stayed. When I hear about the
Civil War I remember walking the battlefields and watching reenactments.
Being there forced me to become emotionally involved with history.
I enjoyed the descriptions of the food and I could almost smell
and taste it.
I also enjoyed the sumptuous descriptions of the various foods. Especially in
the chapter on Thailand - The "ho mok" made my mouth water. I had never thought
about it before, but now I realize how much food is a part of a culture.
If the author had not devoted such detail to food, the novel would have been
lacking.
Maybe she could include recipes in her next novel?
:-)
>>>snip>>>
Perhaps I'm naive...or maybe I just don't get it. I felt very connected
with many of the people and places I visited. Especially Bali (where
I lived for around 8 years), New Zealand (one year), Nicaragua and
Guatemala (about 8 months each). I ate and cried and laughed with
families that I considered mine.
>>>snip>>>
I was very moved by the author's description of her visit to Nicaragua and the
end of her political innocence. During college, while majoring in geography (
with an emphasis in international area studies) my political naivete took a
good beating whilst taking a "Modern Latin America" course. When the loyal
Sandinista grandmother asks Rita, "What is a Communist?" I felt the betrayal
all over again. I am looking forward to reading her young adult novel "Inside
Nicaragua: Young People's Dreams and Fears".
Sarah
Before we get into "Ender's Game" for March are there any closing comments on
"Tales of a Female Nomad"? What did you think of the book? On a scale of 1 to
5, with 5 being the highest, how would you rate the book?
Don't forget to stop by and hear Rita Golden Gelman speak about her travels
and sign copies of her book at the downtown library tomorrow!!!
Rita Golden Gelman
Friday March 1st, 2002
7pm
Meeting room B
Tippecanoe County Public Library
627 South St
I give this book a five. Loved it. Loved the writing. Can't wait to hear her
speak. For me, the net result of this book was challenging the concepts of
belonging., of family. This was good book to read, especially at this time
in my life -- I think I'd have not responded the same had I not been on the
"other" side of 50. Scottie
I would give it a 4.5. I thought it was enjoyable and an easy read.
I would give it a 4.
I enjoyed it,
and felt the detachment that some other people expressed.
Maybe the author chose not to share what her emotions were during and after
her divorce. Maybe it was to stay true to the Female Nomad theme, and not
burden the reader with baggage of the emotional nature.
I guess in the true sense, of the meaning of Nomad, which is to wander
aimlessly...our author did not do that...She had a purpose....
Writing, and could always go back home, get refreshed, and then head out to
the next adventure. As any of us would do, I think she held tight to being
American, and blending in with the other cultures, to a certain point.... but
could never TRULY be one with them.
If I am passing judgment, sorry...just feelings from reading.
I admire her sense of adventure.
Also, this may be tacky, but I wanted more romantic intrigue in the book...
Maybe that is not in the nature of the author.....
Just a thought....
I would give it a 4 - eminently readable. I look forward to meeting her in
person!
Jean
Hi all,
I didn't get around to replying earlier. I would rate this a 4. I enjoyed it,
and also I would recommend it. It wouldn't be something I would do, I need to
be closer to my comfort zone. I have friends who quit their jobs and just
moved to Seattle. Scary, and that isn't even another country.
This was an interesting book, and i would definitely recommend it. Thanks for
the interesting book suggestions.
back to top
The book to be discussed in March is "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card.
This is a Hugo and Nebula award winner about a six year old genius who is
emotionally tortured in order to mold him into a general who can save humanity.
"Emotionally tortured" ... that's an interesting take on this book. Did
you get that from NoveList!?
I would have said "manipulated"--because while the things the military does
to him in order to make him what they need might be called torture if done
to a normal kid, I see Ender as more than just a kid. He has more
understanding of both emotion and manipulation than most adults, and in
fact uses some of the techniques they use on him to manipulate the people
around him.
I guess you could argue "torture" vs. "necessity," but I would say that
necessity wins. (It does in the book, anyway.)
--Ian
Actually I made up the emotionally tortured bit. But I think it is true. I think
the things done to him and the other kids are at a level beyond manipulation.
You can see this by the emotional breakdowns they start having at the end of the
book. The fact that Ender is an extraordinary child and can hold up better to the
torture, does not mitigate the damage they cause him. The true extent of the damage
does not really reveal itself until the third and fourth books of the series
"Xenocide", and "Children of the Mind".
Did necessity really win in the end? This early in the month I don't want to give
away the ending of the book, but was it necessary to do what they did?
neal
I think the base question this debate centers around is the good of one versus
the good of many. I don't want to give away the ending either, but throughout
the book, that is the central question the adults raise. We are left to decide
is ruining the life of a few children worth it to save the world?
"Ender's Game" is a book I often describe as a Sci-Fi book for people who don't
like Sci-Fi. This is the story of a young boy who is bred and trained to save the
Earth from a race of insect-like aliens who have attacked the planet twice. Ender
Wiggin is only six at the beginning of the story, but he has the intelligence and
understanding of someone much older. In short, he is a genius. At six, he is taken
away from his family to begin training at battle school, on an orbiting space
station. Ender excels at the school despite manipulations from above, but is he
smart enough to beat the aliens?
Going with the discussion of the past few days, do you think the things that are
done to mold the children into soldiers at battle school are justified? Do the
teachers go too far? If you feel their treatment of the children is tough but ok,
how about the treatment of Ender and the extra pressures they put on him?
We mold children each minute of every day. We is defined as all
encountered each day...teachers, parents, child care givers, siblings,
etc. I'm thinking I may not have gone quite as far as the instructors in
the book....
In an interview the author states, "children are a perpetual, self-renewing
underclass, helpless to escape from the decisions of adults until they become
adults themselves." How do you feel about this quote? Do children have rights?
Are these rights the same as an adult's or are they less until a certain age?
Interesting side note:
Cornell Law School's Legal Information Institute has this to say about
children's rights:
"A child is a person and not a subperson over whom the parent has an
absolute possessory interest. The term "child" does not necessarily mean
minor but can include adult children as well as adult nondependent children.
Children are generally afforded the basic rights embodied by the Constitution.
The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment is said to apply to children,
born within a marriage or not, but excludes children not yet born. There are
both state and federal sources of child-rights law."
Children have rights but only to the extent that their
maturity will allow and the parents are the final judge
of that. In todays society children do not have any
problems escaping from the authority of adults.
I believe that it is almost impossible for parents to
exercise their complete authority over their children
that is their God given right. The children are outside
of the parents authority more than they are under their
authority, i.e. school and activities. If the schools
do not notify the parents of problems or bad
attendance, the parents can not exercise their
authority. And children spend more time interacting at
school than they do at home.
I think the schools K through 12 need better funding so
they can assist the parents rather than assisting the
children to circumvent the parents authority.
>In an interview the author states, "children are a perpetual, self-renewing
>underclass, helpless to escape from the decisions of adults until they
>become adults themselves." How do you feel about this quote? Do children
>have rights? Are these rights the same as an adult's or are they less until
>a certain age?
I think there are isolated cases where children can become empowered to
"escape from the decisions of adults"; but mostly I agree with the
quote--which is not to say I think that children don't have rights ... it's
just that adults decide how those rights apply, and to whom, and in which
cases.
Also, children don't usually have the knowledge or experience to be able to
tell the difference between "something bad" and "something bad which
violates their rights", and even when they do, the viewpoint of many, many
adults is "why should I listen to you? You're just a child." With the
implication that they are not trustworthy or that they are of no
consequence (and therefore any act that violates their rights is also of no
consequence).
I believe that the bitterness engendered by experiences as a child is what
makes some kids grow up to be adults who perpetuate this cycle. (Though
I'm sure some adults just turn out mean.)
What's interesting to me is that Ender doesn't turn out mean or bitter ...
either in this book or in books that follow. And the people in charge of
the Battle School aren't acting out of cruelty or some sort of misplaced
quest for power--there's more at stake than their egos.
--Ian
Yes, if the world were faced with annihilation and the only choice was to
sacrifice the childhood of a few geniuses, I would vote for appropriating
those childhoods. And the children seem to buy into it since they keep going
back to the Battle Room. They could have given up, dissolved into tears, and
washed out and they seem smart enough to have known that. The ending does
call into question the motivations of the adults in the story, though. Is it
self-defense or revenge that motivates them?
In a message dated 2/28/2002 1:25:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
I think the base question this debate centers around is the good of one
versus the good of many. I don't want to give away the ending either, but
throughout the book, that is the central question the adults raise. We are
left to decide is ruining the life of a few children worth it to save the
world?
>How do you feel about the things that the children did? Do you think any
>children, even brilliant ones, could do the things done in the book? What
>about the side story of Peter and Valentine?
I think that children could do those things ... though perhaps only in
literature! It's an interesting question, and I think that what happens
with literature is that the author injects experience into young characters
that they couldn't possibly have (or at least, the perspective brought by
experience). I knew some pretty smart people when I was in high school,
e.g., but it didn't mean they could relate to the world any better--there
was a distinct lack of common sense.
So what's interesting to me is whether there is any basis for children
being able to put things together the way the Wiggins did. One way to look
at it is that they were very keen observers and could make inferences and
use their intuition about the motivations of the various people they dealt
with. With Ender, it's a little more believable, because he is often in
direct contact with the people he is figuring out; with Peter and
Valentine, it's maybe less believable because they almost never have direct
contact. (Less believable, that is, from the point of view of "could it
happen in reality"; within the story, I think it is very convincing.)
But, of course, this is a main difference between reality and literature:
in literature, you get to know everything of import that goes on in a
person's head, while in reality, it's never that simple.
--Ian
I'm finding it hard to think about and discuss only "Ender's Game."
This is one of those cases where as I've read the other books in the series,
and now in the parallel series (Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Hegemon),
I have trouble not bringing them into the discussion. When someone asked
about Peter and Valentine it especially struck me how the later books have
modified what I think/believe about those 2, and some of the other supporting
characters.
Ender's Game certainly stands on its own without problem, but the characters
seem real enough to me that I have trouble restricting them to only one book.
I also wonder if children generally have more complex and deeper experiences
and feelings than adults give them credit for. I wonder if the children in the
story willingly endure battle school because at least the adults there take
them seriously, and believe that they have real contributions to make.
This is one of those books I reread every few years. I'm starting to wonder
when my 10 year old son will be old enough for this. how old were you when
you read this for the first time?
Nancy
I think it's ok to bring in ideas from the other books as long it is dealing
with situations that come up in Ender's Game. I don't want to get into the other
books too much and spoil them for people who haven't read them. When I reread
this book last week, I was struck by how little Peter and Valentine are actually
in it and how much of their activities is inferred. The later books shed a lot
of light on their personalities and activities.
For those of you who have not read all the books, I don't think I would be
alone in recommending them. Without giving anything away, I will try to provide
a short description of each of the books below.
1. Ender's Game - a young boy is trained to be the general that will save
humanity from alien invaders.
2. Speaker for the Dead - Ender, now a young man, travels to a colony world
where another intelligent alien species is being studied.
3. Xenocide - Ender and Valentine try to save the planet of the pequeninos
(the aliens from Speaker for the Dead) from a human fleet determined to destroy
it due to a deadly virus it carries.
4. Children of the Mind - actually a continuation of the story in Xenocide. The
fleet is about to arrive and Peter and Val, physical copies of Ender's
conciousness created while in faster than light travel, must try to save the
planet and the 4 unique alien species it now contains.
5. Ender's Shadow - takes place during the same time frame as Ender's Game,
but from the point of view of Bean.
6. Shadow of the Hegemon - After the bugger war, the children from battle school
are returned to an Earth on the brink of war. Bean must try to save the children
from battle school that have been kidnapped, to do this he must turn to Ender's
older brother, Peter.
Card states in the introduction that he never felt like a child, "I felt like a
person all along - the same person that I am today. I never felt that I spoke
childishly. I never felt that my emotions and desires were somehow less real
than adult emotions and desires." Card also goes on to speak about how this view
of children's intelligence and emotions can upset people who don't see children
as thinking, feeling beings.
I reread it every few years myself too. I was around 12 when I read it for the
first time. I think it helps to read it at a young age, because you identify more
with the kids. Now I find myself identifying more with Graff, the moral dilemmas
he goes through and his amazement at the kid's abilities.
moderator
>Card states in the introduction that he never felt like a child, "I felt
>like a person all along - the same person that I am today. I never felt
>that I spoke childishly. I never felt that my emotions and desires were
>somehow less real than adult emotions and desires." Card also goes on to
>speak about how this view of children's intelligence and emotions can upset
>people who don't see children as thinking, feeling beings.
I say this another way: As far as I can tell, most of the adults around me
have forgotten what it was like to be 6, or 10, or 16. I haven't. I am
every age I have ever been. It seems weird to me how many people go
through their early years and then forget them--as if somehow they were
brainwashed by other adults into thinking that during their childhood
years, they were "childish", a word that has extremely negative
connotations but isn't really descriptive of children as a class.
Weird, I say!
--Ian
Ok, we are reaching the end of our discussion of Ender's Game.
This book has been a Sci-Fi classic since it's publication in 1985.
In many ways Card captured the idea of the Internet before it became reality.
The book has won both the Hugo and Nebula awards for best Sci-Fi novel of the year.
What did everyone think of it? Please rate it from 1 to 5 with 5 being the highest.
If you liked it, remember to check out the sequels.
Next Monday, we start discussion of the book " Motherland : Beyond the Holocaust
: A Mother-Daughter Journey to Reclaim the Past" by Fern Chapman. This is the true
story of the author who travels with her mother (a Holocaust survivor) back to Germany.
The author has graciously agreed to participate in the discussion of her book this
month! Feel free to ask her questions.
moderator
The book captured my attention from beginning to end, and made me nervous
at the same time. I would give it a 4.5...my reservation lies in the
battle scenes which I grew tired of reading.
I love that Ender carries hope at the end; hope and the possibility of
reconciliation.
I am not a science fiction reader, but I have checked-out "Ender's Shadow"
to read now.
Ingrid
5 the ones I read and re-read always get high scores.
I saw a copy of this at the grocery the other day, in trade paper, with cover
art clearly designed to appeal to junior high age readers.
>I love that Ender carries hope at the end; hope and the possibility of
>reconciliation.
There were about 16 years between my readings of Ender's Game and Ender's
Shadow ... and that wasn't enough. Telling almost the same story from
Bean's point of view seemed like a writing exercise to me ... though he
carries that forward into new material, so it was worth reading.
My personal opinion is that the sequel to Ender's Game, Speaker for the
Dead, is one of the best books I've ever read. So is Ender's Game, but at
some point (top 20? top 10?), Speaker is still there, and Ender's Game has
dropped off the list ...
So I guess I'm saying "read what happens to Ender, especially if you're
interested in the idea of reconciliation, next" meaning Speaker for the
Dead--rather than dwelling on the same events.
--Ian
I definitly give it a 5. This is one of the few books I will re-read for
a very long time!
I finished the book thinking "What happens now?" These young children
trained for specific tasks are not wanted by the society any more.
However, I have finished tasks, retreats, etc and I also wonder "What
now?" The point is probably the same. Create your next adventure. When
events are intense, a pause is needed by me to readjust my focus.
Powerful book. I did like the sequels also! Thanks for reminding me to
read it again. I first read it when my son was required to read it (not
IN) around 8th-9th grade. I was curious what was required reading at that
time and especially wanted to know what my children were required to read
plus read for pleasure. Hooked me into reading again!
back to top
Hello!
I am your April moderator and we will be discussing "Motherland: Beyond the Holocaust
- A Daughter's Journey to Reclaim the Past" by Fern Schumer Chapman. I would like to
take a moment to welcome Ms. Chapman to the discussion. She has graciously agreed to
participate and I look forward to her contribution to the discussion.
About Fern Schumer Chapman:
Fern Schumer Chapman, a former reporter for the Chicago Tribune, has taught at
Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism and written for The Washington
Post, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Forbes, U.S. News & World Report, and many
other publications. She lives in the Chicago area with her husband and three children.
A bit about the book:
* Finalist for the National Jewish Book Award.
* Featured on the Oprah Winfrey Show on June 2, 2000:
http://oprah.oxygen.com/tows/booksseen/tows_book_20000602_fchapm.html
* Selected as a Discover New Great Writers title by Barnes & Noble.
* Optioned by Hallmark Entertainment for film rights.
We chose to discuss this book in April because April 7-14, 2002 is the U.S.
Holocaust Days of Rememberance. The United States Congress established the
Days of Remembrance as our nation's annual commemoration of the six million
victims of the Holocaust. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum has
designated Memories of Courage as the theme for 2002 Days of Remembrance
observances in honor of those who took a stand against Nazi barbarism toward Jews,
Roma (Gypsies) and others.
As you read this memoir, think about COURAGE and REMEMBRANCE - both are major
themes throughout the book.
Visit the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/
Sarah
I was immersed into this book. What a blessing to think about different
view points during and after the war. I as an American, seem limited by
the opposing points of view, simply due to my age and distance from the
origin of "action". I am grateful to read about a survivor from the war
but not its effects. Thank you for sharing the journey.
Hi all,
I just got the book today, and am halfway through it. It is an interesting
read, and can speak to all of us about our relationships with our mothers and
grandmothers. I was fortunate to know both of them. I miss my mother now,
and several times in the last couple of years I have wanted to know things
about her mother and her and she wasn't here to ask anymore. We often don't
realize what a joy it would be to know about their lives when they are here to
tell us. I can't wait to finish reading the book. My grandmother came to this
country from the Netherlands, and I know very little about her life in Holland.
She never talked about it.
This book touched me deeply. It added to my limited understanding of the
Holocaust tragedy - the voices of Mina and her son were especially powerful.
I applaud the Mother for finally making the decision to try to "reconnect and
reconcile" with her past. And the author for being supportive and loving her
Mother enough to make the trip with/for her. And then writing about it all!
I was inspired by this book to continue in my own personal search for identity.
Thanks.
I was hooked after reading the Prologue and Chapter 1. I started writing down
certain phrases that grabbed me ("past her reflection, a self-portrait on glass";
"places age and evolve as people do"; "I feel as if I'm sitting on a boat holding
the tether to a deep-sea diver, off somewhere in the dark depths. My mother hasn't
tugged in a long while"; "her bloodshot eyes map the private roads she took during
the night"). I could see this was going to happen too often and destroy the flow
of the story for me! So will do that when I reread it.
The laughter they shared about Isabelle at the end of the book made me laugh at
first, too. But then I felt the tears of the author as she later realized she
had never been able to reach her mother in that way. It was uplifting though as
the book left me feeling that they all three seem to "be here now" and looking
forward to "a brand new day".
I also found myself jotting down quotes - one that particularly struck me was
the author's quote from Virginia Woolf: "Things we have felt with great intensity
have an existence independent of our minds; are in fact still in existence..." Then
the author: "Those who experienced the war or its half-life know that it lives on;
the war's clock has no numbers, no spring, no plug to pull."
I noticed this especially with Mina. The past was very much alive for her.
I empathized with her inablilty to "forgive and forget." I found myself asking
how Edith was able to embrace Hans after knowing what he had done. How could she
want to return to Stockstadt and befriend those that had not stood up for her family -
those who had ostracized her family. Yet I wept at the pain and grief and shame that
Hans felt. And I wondered what would I have done?
At 06:10 PM 4/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
I found myself asking how Edith was able to embrace Hans after knowing what he had done.
How could she want to return to Stockstadt and befriend those that had not stood up
for her family - those who had ostracized her family. Yet I wept at the pain and
grief and shame that Hans felt. And I wondered what would I have done?
As a former member of the German Marines, Hans has spent his life coming to terms
with his own culpabilityin the war. How does his admittal of complicity to Edith
affect Fern's struggle to see Germans as humans? How did your feelings toward Hans
change as you read the book? What do Hans, Edith, and Mina have in common in the
ways that they deal with the past?
Sarah
Moderator
AN INTERVIEW WITH FERN SCHUMER CHAPMAN
When did you become aware that your life and that of your mother and grandparentswas
a viable subject matter for a book, and why was this the right time to write it? Was
the trip to Germany taken with a book in mind, and if so, how did this goal affect the
trip?
I always knew this was a story that ought to be told, but I waited until I was ready
emotionally, and as a writer. I went on the first trip with the hope of finding
whatever was left in Germany of my family. On my second trip, accompanied by my
husband and children as well as my mother, I began to realize that I should write a
book. With three generations together in my mother's little town, I saw the larger story.
How did your training as a journalist affect your writing of this memoir? What were
the advantages and disadvantages of writing Motherland as autobiographical narrative,
versus a journalistic piece that is more "distanced"?
Good storytelling is good storytelling in any medium. Every writer uses the same
elements: good quotes become dialogue; a magazine's narrative drive becomes the
book's story arc. I didn't see how I could write the book journalistically. I have
no emotional distance from this experience, and I could not introduce distance
without corrupting the story.
How do you place your work within the genre of Holocaust literature?
I wrote the book as a personal story without considering it as Holocaust
literature. Clearly, it fits into a genre of second-generation voices. This
is a new kind of nonfiction that examines historical forces through intensely
personal experience, using the techniques of fiction to tell a factual story;
in other words, a literature of ordinary perspective on extraordinary times.
Even when a story is not one's personal experience, its telling can illuminate
something in one's own truths. While I was writing Motherland, an Irish Catholic
friend often laughed with me about how you don't have to be Jewish to identify
with my story. "This book," my friend would say, "is for everyone who ever had
a mother!" So often, readers who know little of the Holocaust experience discover
that my world looks a lot like theirs.
What do you hope will be accomplished through publication of a seemingly private
history? What would you wish for readers to take away from this story?
First, I hoped to discover and comprehend enough of a family history to offer to
my children. Second, I wanted to show how a cataclysmic event such as World War II
reaches beyond its participants and continues to shape future generations. I want
readers to see how the past defines the present.
Much is made in the book about the relationship between generations: mother
and daughter, grandparents, a family legacy. How has writing this book and
telling the story of your family affected your children and your mother? How
can you offer children a life "free of war" without erasing their awareness of history?
The lesson I hope my children have taken is that we need to be aware of the
forces that shape us and our reaction to them. We must be able to discuss these
things. I'm happy and grateful to say that, since the publication of the book,
my mother is much more comfortable with her past. The reactions of readers to
the book have shown my mother and me that we are not alone in our experience.
I can't offer my children a life free of war, but I can help them understand
its ravages and its lingering effects.
You refer to the Germans as Fatherland-less, homeless, as contrasted with the
Motherland, a seemingly warm and universal place. How would you define this
concept of the Motherland, and what place does it hold within the book?
"Motherland," for me, has many meanings, and I'm touched and thrilled when readers
suggest their own. For me, "motherland" is of course one's homeland. It is also an
emotional terrain where identity takes root, as well as a foundation upon which we
build our selves. And it is the place in our hearts that springs into being when we
become mothers.
Source: http://www.fernschumerchapman.com/
Sarah
Moderator
From the Author:
Hello Sarah and friends in the Book Clique!
Sorry it has taken me so long to read and react to your comments. A
combination of a busy schedule and a technological glitch delayed my
response. Anyhow, here I am.
Let me say a few words about the life of the book. You may not realize this
-- 60,000 new titles come out each year and most have a shelf life of only
three months. My book came out in April of 2000 and it continues to sell
well. The word-of-mouth from book club to book club has really created a
momentum. So I thank you for your enthusiastic comments about the book and I
really appreciate that many of you are sharing the book with friends.
A couple of recent developments are quite exciting. The book was just
released in Germany and the reaction in the press has been positive. Several
papers have called the book "profoundly moving" and "powerful." Some school
officials in my mother's region are considering using the book in the
curriculum. In addition, Hallmark Entertainment has optioned the film rights
and I understand that the Germans are financing the movie. So this gives you
a sense of how Germany is beginning to face its history.
I want to respond to a couple of your comments. It thrilled me that one of
the members mentioned the last line. The readers commented, "It was uplifting
though as the book left me feeling that they all three seem to 'be here now'
and looking forward to 'a brand new day.'" This was my intention. It is a
story of learning to face the past, of remembering and honoring while looking
forward and letting go. Happily, my mother has said that since we took the
trips and since the publication of the book, she feels released from the
past. She only wishes that all of this occurred earlier in her life.
I also appreciated this comment: "What a blessing to think about different
view points during and after the war. I as an American, seem limited by
the opposing points of view, simply due to my age and distance from the
origin of "action." Until I took these trips, I never really thought much
about the German legacy. It was my intention to write a book that would
enlarge our view of the effect of the Nazi atrocities.
Some of you might like to visit my website at www.fernschumerchapman.com.
Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments. Please keep them coming and I
promise to be a better correspondent.
Fern Schumer Chapman
Motherland is more than a war memoir - it's also the story of mothers and daughters,
of parenting and children. In a conversation with her mother, Fern asks:
Had Edith been in her parents' place, would she, too, be able to perform the
ultimate sacrifice- sending Fern away forever, orphaning a child to save her life?
Is wanting, at any cost, a better life for your children selfless or selfish?
Sarah
What a horrible decision to make. The movie "Sophie's Choice" also
offered the horrible decision of the commandant asking her which of her
two children would live with her and which would die. How could any
mother be forced to make such a decision. Well, war certain did just
that. In peace, it seems not one parent could choose. And yet, many
parents were forced to make many decisions that would break that parent's
heart. I ownder if the mother (in this case) always wondered what
happened to her two daughters - even after arriving "safely"? I wonder if
she feel better thinking that they weren't suffering the pain and agony of
war/concentration camps/etc? But I also think her heart would never mend.
Question asked was: Is wanting, at any cost, a better life for your children
selfless or selfish?
If enough individuals were to answer this question I feel we would surely
encounter EVERY shade of degree in meaning that these two word, selfless and
selfish, could possibly have. Very, very hard to answer for another person
without being extremely judgmental. Difficult enough to answer in one's own life.
I agree with an earlier writer that ( in the case of Edith's mother)
"her heart would never mend".
But I also think her heart would never mend.
>>
>From Fern Chapman:
One man came up to my mother at an event and said, "At least your parents
went to their deaths with the comforting knowledge that they had saved you,
that you had survived and that you would live out your natural life." That
gave her a little peace.
At 06:41 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>From Fern Chapman wrote:
One man came up to my mother at an event and said, "At least your parents
went to their deaths with the comforting knowledge that they had saved you,
that you had survived and that you would live out your natural life." That
gave her a little peace.
Betty, Edith's sister was also sent to America. Yet Edith was unable to be
close with Betty after her arrival in America - each sister's presence reminded
the other of the family members they had lost. Why do you think the war and
the emotions surrounding it drew Mina and Edith closer together, while it drove
Betty and Edith apart?
The German concept of the "lucky late born" - those born too late to be held
accountable for Nazi crimes - is revealed in this book to be a false one, as
Fern shows that the war's legacies echo in future generations. Do you think
Fern's desire to provide her unborn daughter with a way to "escape the past"
is possible?
Should'nt each generation have a responsibility to remember?
Is it necessary to forget in order to heal?
We are nearing the end of the discussion for "Motherland". Thank you to all
who joined the discussion - especially the author, Fern Schumer Chapman. Please
take a moment to rate this book 1(lowest) to 5 (highest) and to post your final
comments.
The book to be discussed in May is "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
by J.K. Rowling.
It's been a pleasure leading this discussion.
Thank you,
Sarah
I will give this one a 5. It really brought to life the effects of the
Holocaust on a variety of people. I have read/seen many descriptions of the
widespread grief and horror of having families and communities wiped out, and
the huge number of victims is sometimes hard to imagine. With Edith, who had
to cope with a huge hole in her life, and Hans, who had to cope with guilt
for his part in what happened to his neighbors, and Mina, who tried her best
to fight but was bitterly outmatched, the Holocaust was brought home to me in
a new way. Thanks for recommending it!
Hi all,
I would rate this a 4.5. It was easy to read. I enjoyed all of the discussion.
I would not have just read this if it hadn't been recommended.
I intend to pass it on and have recommended it to several others.
I rate this a 5. I learned from it and was drawn into a different
perspective of the WWII. The writing style was great. I was motivated to
learn more. I was motivated to reconnect with my mother, who died twenty
years ago, through relatives. It makes me want to draw closer to my
daughter. Thank you, Fern Schumer, for writing a wonderful book!
I rate this an unconditional 5. Wish more books that I read would
"stay with me" like this one has.
I rate this book a 4. It was very lyrical and moving and a pleasure to read.
I give it a 5 - what a powerful and touching memoir.
Final Comments from the Author:
Thank you so much for your enthusiastic reactions to Motherland. Obviously, I
wrote the book for my own catharsis, but my hope was that it would resonate
with others as well. So you can imagine how gratifying it is to hear that the
book speaks to so many of you in the bookclique.
I have enjoyed your reactions to the book and I want to thank Sarah for her
interesting questions and insightful observations.
Best wishes,
Fern Schumer Chapman
back to top
Hello all!
Welcome to May's discussion of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. We were
going to have JK Rowling participate in the discussion, but I said, "You know
Jo (because Jo and I are on a first name basis ;) maybe you should just spend
your time finishing up that fifth book that everyone is waiting for..." So
she decided...
I'm really looking forward to a very active and exciting discussion this
month since this is such a popular book. Which brings us to our first question:
Why is Harry so popular with all age levels? What drew you in to reading the
book and (hopefully) continuing through the series? Has it encouraged you to
read other "kid's" books or revisit old favorites?
Becky
>Why is Harry so popular with all age levels?
I think there are/were two main forces that led to the enormous popularity
of the books. The first was word of mouth, conveyed largely by 4th- to 8th
graders. This is the greatest thing that can ever happen to a book.
That's why I read Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone - kids kept
recommending it to me. The second is that the media sank its claws into
that word of mouth process and ripped the ownership of that process away
from 4th- to 8th graders in order to make huge profits. This is not the
worst thing that can ever happen to a book ... but I believe that it's a
sad thing in this case. To me, it's like that scene in "Being John
Malkovich" where Malkovich goes through the tunnel and lands in his own
mind and everybody he sees looks like him and every word out of their
mouths is "Malkovich." That's what the media did at the height of the
frenzy--anytime the books were mentioned, it was "Harry Potter! Harry
Potter Harry. Potter! Harry? Potter Harry Potter!"
I think the books are so popular with adults because the media said "Harry
Potter" so many times that most people couldn't resist the brainwashing and
went out and bought the books so they could feed the media/profit frenzy.
I think even kids are now reading them because of that media brainwashing,
rather than because their friend read one and thought it was good and
convinced them to read it too.
>What drew you in to reading the book and (hopefully)
>continuing through the series?
I think the books are inventive, to a certain extent--mainly with small
things like names and spells and spell ingredients and so on. What began
to bother me when I read the third book is that the kids are always getting
into situations where it would be better to tell an adult, and they
don't--which is fine--but then at the end of the book, the adults say
"well, if only you'd told us," which is ridiculous. You can't have it both
ways. I stopped reading after the third and have no plans to go further.
The Harry Potter books are much better than, say, the Goosebumps books
(Stine), but nothing like as satisfying as, say, The Amber Spyglass
(Pullman) or Watership Down (Adams) or The Lord of the Rings (Tolkien) or
Charlotte's Web (White).
>Has it encouraged you to read other "kid's" books or revisit old favorites?
I've never had trouble with needing encouragement to do either one of those
things. That MIGHT have something to do with working in the Youth
Department of the library. ;-)
--Ian
Ian McKinney
Young Adult Librarian
Tippecanoe County Public Library
In a message dated 05/02/2002 1:41:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
> Why is Harry so popular with all age levels? What drew you in
> to reading the book and (hopefully) continuing through the series? Has it
> encouraged you to read other "kid's" books or revisit old favorites?
Harry Potter is so wonderful and magical for all age levels.
I think you have to buy in about the magic though...not all people are warm
and fuzzy about the magic, but it was simply divine for me.
I read the whole series to my 8-10 year old, it took us that long to get thru
all of them...He LOVED them.
Yes, it has encouraged me to look at other kids books and revisit old ones.
The CS Lewis series and also the Tolkien series.
JK Rowling has opened the door to fun again in reading,
My sorting hat goes off to her.
Well, I think Ian has a very good point about the media's "abuse" of Harry
Potter and that is actually why I took so long to pick it up in the first place.
I kept thinking, "Enough already! It can't be that good! Why is everyone
beating this to death?" But after I finally acquiesced and picked it up, I
haven't been able to put them down.
However, I am a little confused. " What began to bother me when I read the third
book is that the kids are always getting into situations where it would be better
to tell an adult, and they don't--which is fine--but then at the end of the book,
the adults say "well, if only you'd told us," which is ridiculous. You can't have it both
ways. "
Actually, this happens all the time in real life, especially at Harry's age.
In adolescence, kids try again and again to exert their independence and whether
they have success or failure, adults invariably say, "Oh, you should have told us.
We would have helped." But kids know that it is a combination of not wanting adult
help and adults balking at these situations that cause them (kids) to not ask.
(sorry about the convoluted sentence) That is part of what amuses me about the
books. Harry, Ron and Hermione go to teachers/ staff repeatedly (at least in the
beginning of the series) and the adults blow them off. After Harry has solved
whatever problem everyone says, "Well, how about that? The kid was right...."
I still remember wanting to say, "I told you so" to my parents and teachers.
Anyone else?
Some time ago I read the first Harry Potter book so i
do not remember the details but my overall impression
was that it was a fun read. I found it hard to put
down; one incident lead to another and kept my
interest. That something held my interest can not be
said about much of what is being written today.
As to the problems some people found with the story, I
thought they were being very extreme with their
criticism. This was a fun story and meant to be
entertainment not a sermon on how to live life or
whatever else someone would make of it. Can not
anything be fun anymore or is everything so serious
that there is no fun in living anymore?
Just some thoughts i have had ever since I heard about
the Harry Potter story.
Larry
I agree. Adults do say that stuff to kids all the time. and sometimes, it's
even true: if the kids had asked (and if the adults had taken them
seriously) things might have worked out differently (better?). And
sometimes, reading the books, I found myself saying "Tell Dumbledore. TELL
Dumbledore." But Harry, even more than most pre-teens, has little reason to
believe in the help and aid of grownups.
I am hooked because I grew to care about these characters so deeply.
I am hooked because I love the details and precision with which Rowling makes
her world real. I love that a fairly minor incident in Book 2 sets us up to
believe the thing in book 4 that is hard to accept, but essential to believe.
I love that nothing is clearly good and bad in the books. I'm still trying
to sort out my feelings/thoughts about the fellow the dementors kissed in
book 4, and find it very frustrating to actually be worried about Snape and
how he's doing...
My imagination can really run wild when I try to go back to the earlier books
and look for clues about what is still to happen. And so far, rereading the
books has been as fun as reading them the first time. (or the first several
times: my son has all of them on tape as well, and we have listened to them
each many times)
Dumbledore is certainly one adult who doesn't try to keep Harry from nosing
around, trying to figure out what is happening. He delights in book 1 when
he finds out Harry knows all about the sorceror's stone. I think Harry is
bound up in all this one way or another, and that Dumbledore is
letting/encouraging him to begin to find his way, and his strengths, while
still providing some support and backup.
Anyway, I really love these books, in spite of all the media hullaballoo, and
find they really speak to me and to the kids I know who love them. What I
especially love is when a kid finishes book 4 and comes up to me and asks me
what to read while he waits for book 5....
Anxiously awaiting " Harry Potter and The Order of the Phoenix,"
Nancy
I agree. I did not start reading the books until the first four were in print.
Then I devoured all four in less than a week. The world created by Ms. Rowling
is enchanting like Narnia. You just want to catch a glimpse of a little more and
a little more. The story can take so many twists and turns because it is not
bound by the laws of the Muggle world. I think that is what is so appealing,
you never know what will happen next. I admire the work the author put into
this series. She is not just making this up as she goes. Rowling is a master
of foreshadowing. She hides clues to future events and characters in seemingly
innocent dialogue, this is what has me hooked as an adult reader.
I resisted reading the Harry Potter books (only the first two were out in
America) until Polly (thank God for Polly!) sat me down and said, "You've
got to read these." I read the first one and loved it so much that I
ordered the first three from Amazon.co.uk so I could get Prisoner of Azkaban
before anyone in America! After LOTS of rereading (and, I admit, a teensy
foray into writing fan fiction) I still find the books more magical and
wonderful every time I read them. I recently purchased Book One in Spanish
and I am about 50 pages into it...the magic even translates well (even
encumbered by frequent Spanish-English dictionary breaks)!
Being a former Youth Room employee and a lover of fantasy, I have kept
reading children's fiction all my life (at least the 22 years that I've been
able to read!) so Harry Potter hasn't really fueled my interest in
children's fiction in that sense.
My father (who is inching towards 50) and I used to commute to work in
Indianapolis together, and it was during that commute that he was introduced
to Harry Potter. Jim Dale's wonderful recordings kept us enthralled through
many traffic jams. Dad even got worked up about the way the Dursleys treat
Harry. Dad doesn't read much children's fiction anymore (Narnia books
excepted) and he is eager to read Book 5 as well.
I think it is the powerful characters that keep us reading. The magic is
another big factor (though Dad wonders why toilets do work, but ball point
pens don't)--but it really comes down to the characters. I actually admire
Snape (his meanness aside) because of his spying and the honour he exhibited
in saving Harry's life even though he hates him. I also quite like
McGonagall, because I have a feeling she's really a softie underneath her
stern exterior. And of course there's Ron, the faithful sidekick (I admit
to having a soft spot for sidekicks). What's strange is Harry himself isn't
my favourite character. Is there anyone else out there like me???
=)
Stephanie
Buffy: See, this is a school and we have students and they check out books
and then they learn things.
Giles: I was beginning to suspect that was a myth.
I enjoyed the diversity of characters within the set of books. Some were
lovable, scary, fun, mean, etc. Just as our world has a variety of
people, I enjoyed meeting and then revisiting certain characters. Some I
was glad to leave behind! Thank you, Ms. Rowling for the fun and
introspection.
At 11:44 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>I did not start reading the books until the first four were in print.
>>Then I devoured all four in less than a week.
I also did not read them til all 4 were out so I am having to go back and
re-read "...The Sorcerer's Stone" because the stories are all jumbled together
in my mind!
As a librarian working mainly with adults I feel I sometimes have to "force"
myself to read juvenile fiction. However, when I first read H.P. I couln't
get enough! I was encouraged to re-visit other children's fiction that I
read growing up: "A Wrinkle in Time" and "The Chronicles of Narnia" in particular.
Sarah
>What I especially love is when a kid finishes book 4 and
>comes up to me and asks me what to read while he waits for book 5....
I made up a book list that answers this question about the time book 4 came
out. We still have it available in the Youth Dept.-- "The History of
Magic: A Reading List for Hogwarts' First- through Third-Year Students." I
hope to put together the list for Fourth- through Seventh-Year Students
sometime before book 5 comes out.
--Ian
Ian McKinney Tippecanoe County Public Library
Young Adult Librarian 627 South Street
(765) 429-0121 Lafayette, Indiana 47901-1470
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I am a 39-year-old mother of two boys, ages 8 and 13; and I love reading
Young Adult books just as much as my own selections. My 13-year-old son had
the book long before I picked it up to read it. Happily, one of the members
of my book club (women ages 32 to 60) suggested we read it for "something
different." She continually reads books looking for good ones to buy for her
grandchildren.
I must say, I absolutely loved this book. My favorite scene, the chess
match, is a perfect example of why. Such imagination! I could picture it
like I was right there - and was wishing the whole time that I could be. The
game of Quidditch gave me the same feeling. Book One captured my imagination
just like Wrinkle in Time did when I was in elementary school, taking me to a
whole other world that was magical, fun, and pure fantasy.
Sometime later I read the second book, and quite honestly, found it to be
boring. The novelty and imagination of the first book is what captured me
so, and while I enjoyed the characters, reading a continuance of their lives
didn't work the same magic on my imagination. I'm working on the third book
only because my son swears that the fourth one is better than all the rest;
and I always listen to his recommendations!
As for the media hype, ugh, I am continually amazed by how much print and air
time we can waste on trivialities. It's a fun story and I wish it could just
be enjoyed as such. I have personally boycotted the movie, simply because I
do not want my own mental images ruined.
Great question from Stephanie. In my first reading of the series I HATED Hermione.
On my second (or third) reading I realized "Hey. I think I might have been a lot
like her." By the second time I read book 4, I really liked Hermione and was
cheering for her getting "her man" (Sometimes we geeky girls can catch a stud or
two... :) Which character is your favorite or do you most identify with?
Rowling puts a great deal of research and meaning into her names, places and scenarios.
What appear to be little details actually carry a great deal of weight. I keep
telling my mother who is reading the books for the first time that Rowling has no
throwaway sentences- pay attention to EVERYTHING. What was the best use of
foreshadowing or hidden meaning?
By the way, there are some great websites out there that have name and
place origins. www.mugglenet.com and www.the-leaky-cauldron.com both have
name origin lists, but be warned: there are major spoilers if you haven't
read all four books. Also a good deal of theorizing, which can come across
as far-fetched. Still, it is good background information to have. Check
out Nicholas Flamel and Hagrid. Very interesting.
Becky
"There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it."-
Prof. Quirrell
JK Rowling has said in numerous interviews that society doesn't give children
enough credit (for intelligence, maturity, etc). If the popularity of her books
in an indicator, she appears to know what she is talking about. The subject
matter is advanced and challenging, even for many adults. Are Rowling's
investigations into the gray areas of life too heady for younger readers?
Does the media controversy over the "morality" of Harry Potter stem from
Rowling giving children TOO much credit? Do Harry's decisions to break so
many rules undermine her theme of good versus evil or give it more weight?
Becky
Finally someone who I can agree with 100%. Harry Potter
and his friends teach two good lesson to both young
people and adults. One is do not be afraid to take
risks and two you are responsible for your actions and
and decisions.
To often people make excuses for their actions i.e.,
bad childhood is the most common one and those
responsibility for corrective action agree with them.
The recent defeat of Laura Zimmerman as a judge, shows
that the voters in Tippecanoe County would rather do
nothing about crime than make voilaters take
responsibilty for their actions. I know that Judge
Zimmerman may at times go over board with her lectures
in the court room but I think these can be overlooked
when her total record is reviewed.
I hope this not too political but I think this is an
example of why there was criticism of the Harry Potter
stories.
Larry
>Are Rowling's investigations into the gray areas of life too
>heady for younger readers? Does the media controversy over the "morality"
>of Harry Potter stem from Rowling giving children TOO much credit? Do
>Harry's decisions to break so many rules undermine her theme of good versus
>evil or give it more weight?
Excellent questions! I don't think these investigations are too heady.
Really when you look at children's literature overall, there are plenty of
excursions into the concepts of good & evil, and children more often than
not seem to see these things more clearly than adults. I admit to being
disappointed that (over the course of the series so far) Harry doesn't learn
that he can and should go to Dumbledore for help. But in this first book,
it is very important to realize that Harry is a child who has managed to
grow up into a decent boy with courage and honour, even though he was raised
in a terrible situation where he was not loved--and actually treated with
open dislike and constant criticism. He isn't used to receiving support and
assistance, let alone acceptance and love, from any adult in his life, and
so he has no way of knowing that the teachers at Hogwarts are a different
sort of adult. He knows what the rules are, but if he sees that something
must be done, even if there is a rule against it, he will do it, because the
idea of trying to get an adult to change the rule or make an exception,
would simply never occur to him.
Stephanie
Buffy: See, this is a school and we have students and they check out books
and then they learn things.
Giles: I was beginning to suspect that was a myth.
>Are Rowling's investigations into the gray areas of life too
>heady for younger readers? Does the media controversy over the "morality"
>of Harry Potter stem from Rowling giving children TOO much credit? Do
>Harry's decisions to break so many rules undermine her theme of good versus
>evil or give it more weight?
In my opinion, the media doesn't know what "morality" is, and so should
avoid talking about it. Even if they agreed on what that word meant, the
diversity of the people that make up this country (and many others) would
make it impossible for people to agree with the media, and that is not what
the media wants (at least in America). So the media cleverly makes people
think that they know what they're talking about, without ever really
telling, and they get all kinds of people to agree with them by making them
think that they (the media) are talking about exactly the same kind of
"morality" the people talk about in their family, in their neighborhood,
town, state, country, and pretty soon everybody thinks they're talking
about the same thing. But they aren't.
If you write something with evil in it, some people won't think kids can
handle it. Many times they think that for some very odd reasons, like with
the Harry Potter books--some people think kids shouldn't read them because
the good guys are actually bad guys. It's weird.
--Ian
Whoa, Giles has a TV. Everybody, Giles has a TV. He's shallow like us. -
Xander
that is one of the more thoughtful and accurate things I have seen written in
a long time...
bravo!!!
<< If you write something with evil in it, some people won't think kids can
handle it. Many times they think that for some very odd reasons, like with
the Harry Potter books--some people think kids shouldn't read them because
the good guys are actually bad guys. It's weird. >>
The sooner kids learn that the good guys sometimes are the bad guys, the
better off they will be. It's much easier to learn it from a good book like
Harry Potter than from real life.
Kay
Here, here! I will step on my soapbox for a minute, but I promise to only do so
with one foot. If I get there completely, you won't want to read that long.............
some of the best lessons learned in life are from experience. Some are from the
experiences of others. I believe that children are capable of learning from the
experiences of others at a fairly young age. "If Susie gets in trouble for something,
then maybe it's not the right thing for me to do." Harry Potter is a multilevel book.
When I read it, it screamed to me about child abuse, power struggles, prejudice, and
intolerance. A child reads it and says " Harry does some really neat things and he has
some really good friends that he can count on." "The priviledged kids aren't always
the ones who succeed in the end." and many other lessons that we adults have learned
long ago.
The fact that Rawlings is able to tell the story, give us commentary at more than one
level and retain our interest so adeptly is the reason this book is so successful.
Media circus. I don't think it would have lasted, had the book been a dud. At some
point the consumer usually figures out when they are being sold a bill of goods. I
don't think Harry Potter fits in that category.
Rita
I had definitely decided to skip this month's book. But with a little prodding from a
family member finally decided to just give it a try! What a delightful surprise. As
a a senior citizen I didn't think I could become interested enough to "plow" through
the 309 pages. Of course I can't comment on the following books as others have, but
found the characters and happenings in this first book enchanting As a former teacher
I could think of children I have had who were exactly like each of the young characters
(minus the ability to perform the exact type of wizardry given in the book!). Same is
true for the "adult" characters! Just found myself cheering for the ones I wanted to
"win" in the various situations that arose. Very glad I read it and will probably try
another one sometime in the future.
Well, everyone, the time has come to rate this month's selection. On a
scale of 1 to 5- 1 being horrible, 5 being great- please rate Harry Potter.
I want to thank you all for a wonderful, spirited discussion this month.
Next month Sarah will be hosting a discussion on The Horse Whisperer by
Nicholas Evans.
Becky
Definitely a 5!
Stephanie
Buffy: See, this is a school and we have students and they check out books
and then they learn things.
Giles: I was beginning to suspect that was a myth.
5!!
Harry gets 5+ from me. My big regret is that I retired just before the first
Harry Potter books came out. I enjoyed reading them myself but would have
had so much fun sharing them with the kids in my school's library. Actually,
my almost 40 year old son introduced Harry to me as he had already read the
first one to my Grandkids and couldn't believe I was so far behind the times.
Since I couldn't do book talks at school, I badgered and cajoled some
reluctant adult readers in my book clubs to give Harry a try. I'm all set
now with all the books, plus the Harry Potter Hogwart's School Magical 3-D
Carousel Pop-up book which had hard use from the previously mentioned
grandkids last weekend, plus the video I purchased today. Obviously I'm a
marketer's dream customer.
Hi,
Read all your comments. I enjoyed the book. Definitely a 5.
Harry Potter gets a 4.9 from me. It is an excellent book. I don't think it will
ever win a Pulitzer, though. Do we need a set of standards when we rank books? :)
Rita
I agree it is a great book. Very entertaining and all. Definitely a children's
classic. It will not win a Pulitzer though. 4.9 is an excellent rating for the book.
I give it 5!
I have read this Harry Potter 3 times, at least. I enjoyed and discovered
new things each time. I would give it a 5. I think the authors approach to
magic is fresh, being set in 'now-times' and the chatacters are well
fleshed. Just reading the one is satisfying, but just in-case you wonder
whatever happened to the fearless foursome, Harry Potter and the Chamber
of Secrets is the sequel.
Ann
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Welcome to the June online discussion of "The Horse Whisperer" by Nicholas Evans.
"It's not a horse story," Evans says of The Horse Whisperer. "It's about people.
Relationships. The horsey elements are important, of course. What I wanted, though,
was an epic romance." (Nicholas Evans about "The Horse Whisperer").
Let us know what you think.
I've included, below, some background info on the author.
Happy Reading,
Sarah
Nicholas Evans was born and grew up
in Worcestershire, England. He
studied law at Oxford University,
graduating with first class honors, then
worked as a journalist for three years
on the Evening Chronicle in
Newcastle-upon-Tyne. He then moved
into televsion, producing films about
US politics and the Middle-East for a weekly current
affairs programme called Weekend World. It was
during this time that he traveled a lot and got to know
the United States.
In 1982 he started to produce arts documentaries -
about famous writers, painters and film-makers,
several of which won international awards (films about
David Hockney, Francis Bacon, Patricia Highsmith). In
1983 he made a film about the great British director
David Lean (Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago etc).
Lean became a friend and mentor and persuaded
Evans to switch from fact to fiction.
For the next ten years, Evans wrote and produced a
number of films for television and the cinema. In 1993
he met a blacksmith in the far South-West of England
who told him about horse whisperers - people who
have the gift of healing traumatized horses. Evans
started work on what was to be his first novel.
Published in the fall of 1995, The Horse Whisperer has
now sold about fifteen million copies across the world.
It has been the number one bestseller in about 20
countries and has been translated into 36 languages. It
was recently made into a movie, starring, produced
and directed by Robert Redford.
http://www.randomhouse.com/features/nickevans/author.html
This book seems to be bringing out the worst in me. I could not care any
less about any of the characters. Evans has the subtlety of a bus and his
emotional analyzation is absurdly shallow. The best example I can think of
is the scene where Annie is in the graveyard, finally crying (after months
and months Evans is sure to remind us) and there is an rundown of her
feelings: I am crying because of reason A, reason B and reason C. When
faced with tragedy or emotional stressors, how many of us can break it down
so simply?
I tried to read this book. Could not do it, no matter how hard I tried. It was
just to boring. It seemed to plod along. Watching a cow chewing cud would have
been more interesting. Sorry.
Hear, hear! Does Evans actually want us to have sympathy for Annie? When she is
lying in Tom's arms, she states that what she had given Robert (HER HUSBAND!) was
loyalty. This is loyalty?????? She feels no regrets, no shame ("It's so okay I don't
know how to handle it") for betraying her husband. And when her husband calls to talk
to her she is irritated and brushes him off, finding fault with him at every point.
Tom is no better - he shows no prick of conscience for his relationship with Annie -
there's "no point in calculating consequence...or right or wrong." He believes that
"forever [is] but a trail of nows and the best a man could do was live each one fully
in its turn." Neither care who they hurt in the process.
Sarah
WHOA, NELLIE! (Pardon the pun). Well I agree with some other writers that the book
moves slowly. But I did like the way Evans developed the relationship between Booker
and Grace. An epic romance? I don't think so. The "romance" between Booker and
Annie seemed much more like they were "in lust". But aren't there many selfish people
in the real world that seem to care little how their actions will "destroy" others?
I agree with Booker that all we have is this NOW moment but he seemed not to care how
his actions in each NOW would affect others. Or did he die because he suddenly saw he
could not have what he wanted without causing so much pain to others? Well at least I
could picture Redford as I read it - which for me at least was a help. ( and even if
Evans said it was not a horsey story, I did at least learn a little about horses!)
I read this book some time ago, but I do remember that a part of me enjoyed
the idea of the romance. I could not, though, no matter how hard I tried,
justify the infidelity. I lost respect for both of them when they consumated
the romance.
Anyone remember how they changed the ending in the movie?? Annie goes back
to her husband, leaving behind a heartbroken, but very alive, Robert Redford.
For the first time ever, I liked the movie ending better than the book
ending.
I was wondering how the clique would react to this book. I read it a year or
so ago and have no intention of rereading it. I felt manipulated, much as I
did when reading "Bridges of Madison County". So here's a marriage that's
gotten a little bit old, and the wife just has NO choice but to fall for this
IMPOSSIBLY perfect guy. I felt like it was written to cash in on middle-aged
female readers (of which I'm one) and I didn't like the feeling!
I read this book several years ago, before the movie came out, and I have
to say that I agree with most of the posters in my dislike for the book.
This was actually one of our choices in a book discussion group that I was
in at the time. Now, I do have to say that many of the people who were in
this group DID like the book, and there were OFTEN disagreements amongst
the group as to whether a book was good or not.
What I particularly did not like, if I remember correctly (I'm NOT going to
re-read it..), was the character development. I just didn't care about any
of them. And the characters (morals and what have you..)of the
characters--The woman was entirely too un-emotional, and cold, and I had NO
respect for her husband when he took her back (was that ending the book or
the movie??) Speaking of the movie--I didn't like it either. (you may be
asking yourself why I would watch the movie after disliking the book so
much..I don't know. It was the only thing on the shelf???).
My memory only goes back so far, so this is about all I can contribute:)
Annie and Grace are not at all close throughout the book. Tom felt that Annie,
Grace, and Pilgrim were "all joined in suffering. If he could help the horse,
perhaps he could help them all." Well, he helped the horse - but what about the
relationship between Annie and Grace?
Sarah
He helped Grace. He helped Annie. But their relationship?? No way, or if
so, VERY indirectly. Hard for me to accept that you could help a
mother-daughter relationship by sleeping with a still-married mother!
could this become a discussion on mid-life crisises?
On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Book Clique wrote:
> He helped Grace. He helped Annie. But their relationship?? No way, or if
> so, VERY indirectly. Hard for me to accept that you could help a
> mother-daughter relationship by sleeping with a still-married mother!
Being at ease in one's surroundings is a theme that runs through the book. Tom is
totally at home in the beautiful Montana countryside, whereas his ex-wife Rachel
never felt at home there. Annie has to sense of belonging - she doesn't feel at
home in England, nor does she feel at home in America. "In each country they thought
that she came from the other one." Annie feels that she has had no home since her
father died. When she falls in love with Tom, however, she begins to discover
herself and feel at home with herself.
Do you agree?
Sarah
Feeling at home with one's surroundings is important, yes. Do I think it was part
of the reason Annie had an affair? Yes. Do I think it excuses her for her behavior
(or Tom's)? Absolutely not. I grew up a long way from Lafayette, IN both physically
and culturally. I still often feel like the proverbial fish out of water. But that
doesn't mean that if I went "home" and felt comfortable with my old surroundings and
friends that I could abandon the "loyalty" (to use Annie's word) to my husband. It
seems that Annie used her comfort as an excuse ("I feel so good here, therefore all
my actions must be right"). But while she's lacking shame (about her affair or anything)
Grace and Robert often think about all the times that Annie's self-absorbed and greedy
decisions have hurt them. Appears that Annie just always needs to justify her bad
decisions and hurting people.
Were you surprised how the book ended? How might things have turned out if Tom had
lived? He didn't believe that Annie would leave her husband, but with a baby on
the way.....
Sarah
Yes, I remember being very surprised at the ending. I hated the whole death
thing - movie ending was actually better for a change!
ok, I'm dense. why would the author kill Tom? was it suicide? was his
ego too large for common sense to squeeze in? did he think he could tame
the wild horse into wanting to be Tom's friend, too? or did Tom just give
up? why would he do it in front of Grace who seemed to be recovering??
the author informed us that he had several chances to back away safely...
yet Tom chose death?? help me!
Actually, at the time, I thought Tom's death was just an easy way out for the
author, then he didn't have to choose a path for Annie. The thought of
suicide crossed my mind too, but I hated that idea so much that I ruled it
out. I finally told myself that it was just a tragic accident. Would love
to hear everyone's thoughts on this one . . .
I agree completely that this was a hasty way to end a story. Suicide
does not fit his character, even on the ride up to look for Grace. Trying
to get close to a wild horse does not fit his understanding of horses. It
does not make sense.
And why wasn't Grace more truamatized? After all she had been through, then to see
this and not be affected? I feel that Evans handled the ending poorly.
Yes, Evans wants us to read Tom's death as a suicide, as Grace notes his posture as
if he were offering something, "Himself?" and his knowledge that he could not approach
a horse so wild that closely. That said, what makes the ending even more contrived
was the note/ package left behind for Annie. "In case you forget". How could Tom
have known he was headed towards any kind of dangerous situation that he would have
the opportunity to kill himself? Wherever he found Grace, how would he plan to bring
her back under his care knowing how hurt she was about the affair? For an ending that
tried so hard to tie up all the loose strings, it left a lot of questions about the
author's view of his readers' intelligence.
Thank you all who joined in on our discussion of "The The Horse Whisperer".
Please take a few moments and rate this book 1(lowest) to five(highest).
The July discussion will feature "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury.
Fahrenheit 451...the temperature at which books burn. Join Greater Lafayette in
exploring this book as a community. This futuristic Bradbury, originally published
in 1953, explores the possibility of firefighters who start fires instead of putting
them out. Where books are feared for the knowledge that they contain. When firefighter
Montag meets a young girl who shows him the beauty of what books contain, his life
begins to change and he begins to reconsider the role that he plays in destroying
these books.
Also take a look at http://www.tcpl.lib.in.us/internet/onegreatread.htm to see a
listing of the other programs associated with One Great Read One Greater Lafayette.
Upcoming selections:
August - The Girl With the Pearl Earring by Tracy Chevalier
Sept - Tortilla Curtain by TC Boyle
It's been a pleasure, as always - Sarah
I would rate it only a 2.
I would rate it a 3. I also read his book The Loop, and it was much better. I didn't
read The Horse Whisperer when it first came out, but later. I enjoyed it, but thought
the parts about the animals and his descriptions were much better than they did in the
movie.
I have to rate this a 1. I feel that the **only** reason this book made it to the
bestseller lists is that Robert Redford purchased the film rights.
I'd probably rate it a three. But for all the bashing, everyone loves a
really sappy romance every once in awhile. Right up there with Bridges
of Madison County. We can go back to reality the minute we finish it.
Doesn't need to dictate behavior. It's fiction, folks! Lighten up!
> I'd probably rate it a three. But for all the bashing, everyone loves a
> really sappy romance every once in awhile. Right up there with Bridges
> of Madison County. We can go back to reality the minute we finish it.
> Doesn't need to dictate behavior. It's fiction, folks! Lighten up!
>
> ________________________________________________________________
These comments state just about the same way I feel about the book. I'd
give it a 3, also.
I'd have to give it a 1. I disliked it as much as I disliked Bridges of
Madison County.
back to top
Fahrenheit 451
Howdy,
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury is the Book Clique title for July. There
have been several other discussion forums besides this one, so if anyone
has participated in any good discussions already, I think it would be great
to continue them here.
I've heard at least one person say that this is a real "downer" of a book.
Do you agree? Is it the plot/action/events of the book that are
depressing, or is it the message or theme? I've found the message to be
complex, and I think it's at least as much about human nature as it is
about censorship.
--Ian
I don't find the book depressing. It can only be depressing if you let the events of
the book occur. I found the symbolism of the book enriching to the theme. It is quite
well written. I think Mr. Bradbury handled the topic very well. I would have liked more
information about Beatty. I read an interview with the author in which he stated that as
a young boy Beatty was very interesting in reading. What happened to make him hate books
and knowledge so much? Why was he wanting to die?
Did Beatty really hate books, or did he want to die because he hated what he
was doing by sending firefighters to burn books? He leaves plenty of room in
his arguments to hint at the second option.
I have heard some people criticize the selection of this book for the One Great Read
program. It worries me that some people don't understand that this book has an important
message. Some just dismiss it because it is Sci-Fi, much as some of us may dismiss romance
novels. I think it is important that people are comfortable enough with themselves and
their beliefs that they can read and view things which are outside of their comfort zone.
I listened to this book on a CD. I think this book is a
warning about what could happen if our first amendment
rights are not protected. All during the story I kept
thinking of what happened in Germany during the
Hitler's reign. I realize that they only burned books
that Hitler ruled were ant-Nazi but it was a beginning
of what Fahrenheit 451 describes. When the reason for
destroying all books was presented it sounded like the
Nazi's thinking taken to the extreme.
It is good to have have books like this to keep the
world watching for rulers who might try to take such a
position or sow the seeds of policies that could lead
eventually to a goverment as described in Fahrenheit
451.
Larry
I'm a little over halfway through the book, and don't find it depressing at
all. A little dark perhaps, but not enough to affect my mood like some
depressing reads. It has been many years since I first read it, and I
enjoying it all over again with a new level of understanding.
I think it's fascinating that several passages in Fahrenheit 451, written
in the 1950s, are still so fitting today.
"Politics? One column, two sentences, a headline! ... Whirl man's mind
around about so fast under the pumping hands of publishers, exploiters,
broadcasters, that the centrifuge flings off all unnecessary, time-wasting
thought!" (page 55 in my Ballantine paperback edition)
It seems to me that this trend has continued. Publishers merging into
conglomerates so that there are far fewer publishing houses today than even
ten years ago; the media digesting stories into the minimum details so that
thinking and considering different points of view are discouraged and
diminished, especially in the realm of politics, where successful campaigns
are judged by who looks the best or who has the best "sound bytes" ...
Or how about this one:
"Is it because we're having so much fun at home we've forgotten the world?
Is it because we're so rich and the rest of the world's so poor and we just
don't care if they are? I've heard rumors; the world is starving, but
we're well fed. Is it true, the world works hard and we play? Is that why
we're hated so much? ... Do you know why? I don't, that's sure! Maybe the
books can get us half out of the cave. They just might stop us from making
the same damn insane mistakes!" (pages 74-75 in my Ballantine paperback
edition)
After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, many people are asking
these sorts of questions. It seems to me that just answering "yes" to them
couldn't produce the kind of hate that drives terrorists, but what of
other, more moderate anti-American sentiment in other countries? It
certainly bears thinking about, in my opinion. When our government holds
up treaties and agreements by acting unilaterally because the steps the
rest of the world wants to take aren't convenient for us, I start asking
"what's the right thing to do?" It's possible that our political process,
which is often geared toward the short term (i.e. getting re-elected)
subverts that question.
But I don't know, I'm just the moderator. ;-)
--Ian
I, too, had to smile to myself at some of the passages, and how fitting they
really are!
I agree with the timeliness of this book. We are not to that level of numbness yet,
but don't you see the general slide into blaming those who are different for the woes
of the world. Perhaps the effect of the parlor walls should make us reconsider the amount of TV
watching we do and the craving for that bigger screen?
Anne
Is this book depressing?
Well....yes and no. It's depressing in that I see us heading toward a society similar
to the one depicted in F451 (mass conformation, censorship, a culture devoid of political
awareness, entertainment as an addiction, etc) but I feel the novel ends on a positive note:
Granger compares society to the Phoenix and states that "someday we'll stop making the goddamn
funeral pyres and jumping in the middle of them. We pick up a few more people that remember
every generation."
To: Book Clique
Subject: Fahrenheit 451
Montag committed murder to maintain his freedom and the integrity of his vision.
Is this OK? Do you believe, as Montag did, that Beatty wanted to die? Of all the
characters in the novel I had the hardest time understanding Beatty. Why is this
highly literate person permitted to survive, let alone hold a position of high authority?
Also, I wanted to know if any of you identified with the pro-wilderness theme
in the novel. Bradbury gives technology a negative connotation (mechanical hound,
fast cars, radio/television) and Montag runs from this mechanical world (the city)
to the traditional haven of the country. Bradbury uses nature imagery to describe
Clarisse, he met Faber in a park, and it is a river that takes him away from the
city. When he reaches land his description of the countryside is enchanting:
"There must have been a billion leaves on the land; he waded in them, a dry river smelling
of hot cloves and warm dust. And the other smells! There was a smell like a cut potato
from all the land, raw and cold and white from having the moon on it most of the night...
He stood breathing, and the more he breathed the land in, the more he was filled up with
all the details of the land. He was not empty. There was more than enough here to fill
him. There would always be more than enough."
Does Bradbury suggest that an appreciation and respect of the wilderness strengthens our humanity?
Sarah -
"In wildness is the preservation of the world" H.D. Thoreau
I read Fahrenheit 451 as a teen and with my small town, rural background
(and all the experience of youth) thought it was definately sci fi and could
NEVER happen. As I have gained a wider knowledge of what leaders will do to
insure peace or gain power, and have come to understand that it is indeed
easier to live in a numbed, uninformed state of mind than is is to face evil
in the world. If the general populance can be seduced into believing that
living in a fairy world where nothing can touch you and that a chosen few
have the glorious duty of destroying whatever gets in the way, it could happen.
Think how easily we're convinced that bell bottoms are cool and that we NEED
that big screen tv or luxury car to feel good about ourselves. Now I'm not
saying that the government is behind the bell bottom movement, etc., but look
how it's done--just hire the Old Navy PR firm!
I have long loved Bradbury's skill at description. My all-time fav is Dandelion
Wine. I reread it nearly every summer.
Anne
Howdy,
There are a few Fahrenheit 451 events yet to come, so I thought I'd list a
few in case anyone is interested.
See the movie! Thursday, August 1, 6:00 p.m., Ivy Hall Auditorium, Ivy
Tech Campus.
Teen Book Talk - Discussion may include Fahrenheit 451, but the point of
this event for teens in 6th - 12th grades is to talk about any and all
books we're reading, as well as connections to movies, TV, etc. Friday,
August 2, 2 p.m., Downtown Library, Meeting Room A.
Discussion Forum - Thursday, August 8, 7 p.m., Downtown Library, Meeting
Room B.
--Ian
Also, remember to celebrate the freedom to read, during the American
Library Association's Banned Books Week, Sept. 21-28. In the world of
Bradbury's _Fahrenheit 451_, that covers a lot more books ... but once you
let someone ban one book, the door to that world has been opened.
--Ian
Where do you rate _Fahrenheit 451_ on a scale of 1-5?
And hey, everyone who reads this message: go ahead and rate the book, or at
least tell why you think rating books is not a good idea. Even if you
haven't ever sent a message to bookclique before, send something now! We
want to hear from you.
--Ian
I give this one a 4.5. It really gave me a lot to think about.
I rate this book at 4.2. It kept my interest in addition to my making
comparisons to our society today. The similarities were shocking. It was
an easy book for me to read. I also read "Martian Chronicles" again which
I enjoyed many moons ago. Thanks for the selection!
I'll give it a 3.5. I really enjoyed this book, even the second time; but
refrain from giving it a 4 or a 5 simply because there are so many books out
there that I absolutely loved reading.
I have a problem rating this book because it is not the
usual type of book I generally read. As for the subject
matter I would rate it a 5 but over all I would go for
a 3.5. It took me a while to figure out what
a "fireman" was. I feel because of that I did not
understand what was going on and missed out on some of
the subject. I gave it a 5 on subject because this kind
of thing could happen for real if the citizens of the
world do not stay vigilant.
Larry
I'll give Fahrenheit 451 a 5. Although this was at least my 4th reading in
the last 20 or so years, I still found new things to ponder. It's scary to
see how close technology has brought us to the "future" that Bradbury created
just 50 years ago. Ironically, I listened to 451 with seashells in my ears
last year.
It was a good choice for the first community read. I hope the next one is as
thought provoking.
I give it a 5!
Hi all,
I would agree, this isn't the type of book I enjoy reading. I would rate it a 4.
Evidently I missed reading it in High School. Several people I talked to had read
it then. No, I'm not that old that it hadn't been written yet!! I certainly enjoy
this group. I find that I have read many things, that I would not have tried, just
because they were out of my "comfort zone"!
I would give Farenheit 451 a 4.5. It's right 'up there' for me although I would
not have chosen it as an entertaining book and can't really say I enjoyed it. It
is certianly thought provoking. A great choice as a community read and online disscussion.
Anne
I rate it a 5. I want to read it again soon (at least skim over it) as I had a
little trouble understanding who the characters were ( or maybe what they stood for)
at first. It is a book that stays in my mind though as it gave one a lot to think
about - even for today.
back to top
A 16 year old girl who cuts vegetables with an artistic flair, a detailed description
of doing laundry in 17th-century Delft, and back alley sex--it's all in Tracy Chevalier's
novel "Girl with a Pearl Earring,"the subject of this month's Bookclique discussion. In this
novel, Chevalier imagines a persona for the young woman who is the subject of the Johannes
Vermeer painting that appears on the book's cover and creates the story of her relationship
with the artist. The resulting book is rich in historic detail of the time when tiny Holland
was both an economic power and artistic hub and is as well a compelling coming-of-age story
of a young woman who confronts the limitations of class and gender. I describe Chevalier as
imagining this story since not much is in fact known about Vermeer except what few details
can be gleaned from public records. We do not even have a surviving image of him that is
known for sure to be the artist, nor do we know the identities of any of his female subjects.
Perhaps you, like me, like to know what is real and what is not in historic fiction, so I
include this thumbnail sketch (note that Chevalier incorporates most of what is known,
even the hypothetical):
Johannes Vermeer was born in Delft (pop.~ 25,000) in 1632 where he spent all of his life
except perhaps for a 6-year apprenticeship he may have served in Amsterdam or Utrecht.
He converted to Catholicism for his marriage to Catharina Bolnes, who came from a wealthy,
bourgeois family. They lived in the house of Maria Thins, Vermeer's mother-in-law, who was
the primary financial support of the family, in a largely Catholic neighborhhood. Only 20%
of the population of Delft was Catholic, and Catholics were barred from municipal functions
but allowed to worship privately. In 1653 Vermeer joined the Guild of Saint Luke as a master
painter. Perhaps he did not make a living from his art because he painted so few--only 35
are known to exist. It is likely that Pieter van Ruijven was his patron as van Ruijven
bequeathed several Vermeers to his daughter.
Verneer's subjects were mostly women doing everyday things like reading a letter or pouring
milk. They were, as one can see in the paintings, probably all painted in the same room, a
studio on the first floor of his mother-in-law's house. He may have used a camera obscura,
as Chevalier suggests, since Antony van Leeuwenhoek, who invented the microscope and other
optical instruments was the executor of his will. Vermeer's wife attributes his death at
age 43 to "the very great burden of his children [they had 11], having no means of his own,
he had lapsed into such decay and decadence that . . . in a day or day and a half he had gone
from being healthy to being dead."
Of course, what is most important about Vermeer is the beauty of the paintings he has left us.
If you would like to see them, go to mystudios.com.
I To get you thinking, here are some questions that it raised in my mind:
-Is there an artist personality as the book seems to suggest?
-Is the character of Griet credible?
-To what extent are the characters fated to the decisions they make by social constraints of their time?
-How is the novel relevant today?
I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Linda
I was hoping to hear more response to this month's book. Are some of you reading it? If so,
what are your thoughts so far? I'm including some discussion questions here in response to
a request for a book group, but these questions also make good starters for our on-line
discussion, so please, anyone, feel free to answer.
Linda
Some of these questions and others can be found at readinggroupguides.com.
1) Is Griet typical of other girls her age? To what extent is Griet a product of her time
period? How different was your personal experience growing up? How does it differ for a
girl today?
2) Is the primary relationship in the novel between Griet and Vermeer? How does it differ
from that of Griet and his wife? How do you feel about Vermeer's treatment of his wife?
3) How does religion affect the characters and the events in the novel?
4) Vermeer and Griet clearly share some artistic talents. Is Marie Thins also an "artist"
figure and in what way is she or is she not?
5) Does Griet "do the right thing" when she marries the butcher's son? How free is she
to make another choice?
6) How is Delft, as it is described in the novel, unique from other communities? How is
it similar?
7) What motivates Cornelia's behavior toward Griet?
Nancy, here are questions I found on the internet--I just did a google search.
Also, there is another online discussion at
...and there are 2 nice interviews with the author on
I was beginning to wonder if anyone else was reading the book! I really liked
it.
Anne Jones, TCPL
Reading Group guide for Girl With a Pearl Earring
Discussion Questions
1. In Girl with a Pearl Earring, Tracy Chevalier treats us to a richly
appointed portrait of intersecting faiths, fracturing family dynamics, erotic
awakenings, community scandals, religious tensions, and aesthetic
compromises-all filtered brilliantly through the eyes of the young narrator
Griet, whose concise, wide-eyed perspective functions much like Vermeer's
camera obscura, rendering with particularly sharp precision and subtle insight
the character of 17th-century Delft itself. "The camera obscura helps me to see
in a different way, to see more of what is there," Vermeer muses. Discuss the
way in which Chevalier's writing style achieves a similar effect. What
techniques does she use to establish the novel's particular tone and tension,
to enrich the imagery, to develop her character's motives, and to encourage us
"to see more of what is there"?
2. In the particular emotional realm of this novel, the issue of "seeing" is
central. Griet endeavors for much of the novel to manipulate all that she sees
into a sort of harmony, beginning with the soup vegetables she so carefully
arranges so that they will not "fight when they are side by side." Likewise,
Vermeer's art relies upon his ability to see the universal in even the most
prosaic settings. Griet's father cannot see at all, and not coincidentally, he
is perhaps the novel's most tragic and impotent figure. What does "seeing" mean
to the novel's other characters? Is it fair to say that, of all the characters,
it is Maria Thins who sees the most clearly in the end? Why or why not?
3. Compare Girl with a Pearl Earring to other historical novels you've read in
recent years (e.g.: Jane Smiley's The Greenlanders, A. S. Byatt's Possession,
Margaret Atwood's Alias Grace, and so on). How does Chevalier's novel-focused,
detailed, and tightly framed as it is-complement, complicate, and/or depart
altogether from the standard themes and trappings of the historical fiction
genre?
4. What is the significance of the eight-pointed star situated among the stones
at the center of the town square? What does its presence underscore about
Griet's position in society, whether as a young woman, as the daughter of a
recently impoverished family, or as the Protestant maid to a Catholic family?
How does Griet's relationship to the star, and the choices she makes in
relation to its eight points, evolve through the course of Chevalier's novel?
5. What is the quality of life, and what are the opportunities available, for a
young Dutch woman in the 1660s and 1670s? For all of Griet's talent for looking
at the world from an artist's high-resolution vantage, is her eventual
progression from housemaid to housewife really nothing but an inevitability,
given both the cultural repression of her gender as well as her parents'
poverty? Discuss the subtle ways in which Girl with a Pearl Earring contends
with these issues.
6. With the previous question in mind, link Chevalier's novel to other books
throughout history that also explore the conditions of women in society. What,
for example, do Jane Austen's alternately conflicted and compromised heroines
have in common with Griet? [You might also consider Girl with a Pearl Earring
alongside works by Virginia Woolf, Edith Wharton and, more recently, Carol
Shields and Diane Johnson. What weight do geography, time period, and politics
bear upon these issues?]
7. Look again at Vermeer's painting, "Girl with a Pearl Earring." In what ways
has your perception of the painting changed as a result of reading Chevalier's
book? Are you more likely to attach particular emotions to the girl's
wonderfully ambiguous expression, given Chevalier's elaborate conjectures and
interpretations? Does the girl look more explicitly melancholy now? More
amorous? Explain.
8. Griet's fellow maid Tanneke is, perhaps, the most likely to elicit mixed
emotions from readers. What was your initial reaction to her? And how did it
evolve as the novel progressed? Did you struggle with her emotions and choices?
Imagine an alternate novel in which Tanneke is the narrator, and "The
Milkmaid," for which Tanneke posed, is the Vermeer painting from which
Chevalier conceives her tale. What sort of novel would this be, and in what
ways might its themes differ from Girl with a Pearl Earring?
9. Although Chevalier's book tells a bracingly personal story of one girl's
transition into womanhood 325 years ago, the author's depictions of love,
self-doubt, bravery, and evolving maturity are in many ways universal. In what
specific ways do you identify personally with Griet, and with the ways she
confronts the challenges and heartaches in her life?
10. "He is an exceptional man," van Leeuwenhoek says of his friend Johannes
Vermeer. "His eyes are worth a room full of gold. But sometimes he sees the
world only as he wants it to be, not as it is. He does not understand the
consequences for others of his point of view." Is this an accurate description
of Chevalier's characterization of the master painter in this novel? Discuss
the particular ways in which Vermeer's failure "to understand the consequences
for others" affects the other characters. For Griet, what could we say is the
cumulative consequence of Vermeer's chronic refusal to see the world "as it
is"?
11. St. Francis De Sales, a 16th-century mystic, famously wrote that "the first
part of the body that a man wants, and which a woman must loyally protect, is
the ear." With this in mind, discuss the rich symbolism and implicit eroticism
behind Vermeer's mandate that Griet pierce her ear. And what are the
implications of Vermeer later demanding that Griet pierce her other ear as
well, even though it is completely hidden in the painting?
12. At every level, the depiction of the relationship between Vermeer and Griet
is full of sexual tension. Griet is reluctant even to take off her cap when she
is modeling. And when she finally does, the moment that flickers between the
painter and the painted is absolutely electric. What does Griet fear will
happen once she exposes her untamable hair, whether to Vermeer or to Pieter,
her future husband?
13. In the title portrait that results from a series of long painting sessions
(during which Griet feels that Vermeer is literally seeing straight into her
soul by way of her glistening eyes), we see that Griet's eyes are moist, the
earring hangs in shadow, exotic and shiny, and her lips are parted, which in
the parlance of Dutch painting means the woman has lost her virtue. Re-read the
scene depicting Griet's final sitting for Vermeer. How does Chevalier bring the
above qualities-the moist eyes, the parted lips, and so on-into play during
this scene, attaching to each the conflicting emotions of love and fear, pain
and longing?
14. What sort of a man is Vermeer? Seeing the world through Griet's eyes, we as
readers are really never privy to his feelings toward Griet, toward his wife
Catharina, and toward his chief patron, the lecherous van Ruijven. Although we
experience with Griet the fear and eventual heartache she feels as she
struggles in vain not to fall in love with Vermeer, we cannot fully know how
Vermeer himself is feeling. "His eyes were masked," Griet tells us. At what
point do we finally get an absolute sense of Vermeer's ambivalent emotions?
What subtle clues and muted suggestions does Chevalier insert throughout her
narrative to indicate Vermeer's "masked" longings?
15. Describe the nature of the relationship between Griet and Maria Thins. How
does it begin? What roles do intimidation, mutual respect, and complicity play
at different points in their acquaintance? How do these color Griet's role as a
maid, and later an artist's apprentice, in the household?
16. In conjunction with your discussion of Maria Thins, consider also the
dynamics of Griet's interactions with Tanneke, Catharina, Maertge and,
especially, Cornelia.
17. Tracy Chevalier has said, "People are voyeurs when it comes down to it.
Vermeer paintings are like a window, and you are often not sure that you really
ought to be seeing what you are seeing." In what ways do Griet's wide-eyed
perspective, and indeed, Chevalier's novel as a whole, resemble this particular
sort of window?
18. What does the future hold for Griet and her family? For Vermeer's older
daughters? Construct an outline in your head for a hypothetical epilogue set in
1686, a decade after Griet sells the pearl earrings on the last page of the
novel. What has happened in the interim?
Discussion questions provided courtesy of Plume.
>From
1. Do you think Griet was typical of other girls her age? In what ways? How did
she differ? Did you find her compassionate or selfish? Giving or judgmental?
2. In many ways, the primary relationship in this novel appears to be between
Griet and Vermeer. Do you think this is true? How do you feel about Vermeer's
relationship with his wife? How does that come into play?
3. Peering into 17th century Delft shows a small, self-sufficient city. Where
do you think the many-pointed star at the city's center pointed toward? What
was happening elsewhere at that time?
4. Discuss the ways religion affected Griet's relationship with Vermeer. His
wife? Maria Thins?
5. Maria Thins obviously understood Vermeer's art more than his wife did. Why
do you think this was the case? Do you think she shared Griet's talents?
6. Do you think Griet made the right choice when she married the butcher's son?
Did she have other options?
7. How is Delft different to or similar to your town or city? Are the social
structures comparable?
8. Though Girl with a Pearl Earring appears to be about one man and woman,
there are several relationships at work. Which is the most difficult
relationship? Which is the most promising?
>From
1. How did you feel about the painting before and after you read the book?
2. Why do you think Vermeer asked to borrow the painting of Griet one last time
before he died? What did it mean to him?
3. Do you think Griet was typical of other girls her age? In what ways? How did
she differ? Did you find her compassionate or selfish? Giving or judgmental?
4. Was Griet seductive? Or innocent? What kind of man was the fictional
Vermeer?
5. What kind of woman was Catherina? Was she selfish?
6. Though the novel appears to be about one man and woman, there are several
relationships at work. Which is the most difficult relationship? Which is the
most promising?
7. What do you think the pearl earring symbolized for Vermeer, Vermeer's wife,
and Griet?
8. Discuss the role of women in the novel. What futures do the women in the
novel have? What freedoms? (Griet, Maria Thins, Catherina, Tanneke, Cornelia,
Griet's mother)
9. The men of the novel operate under the same power and class structure, but
each has very different views of art and the artist's role. Compare and
contrast the men of the novel and discuss what art means to them. (Griet's
father, Vermeer, Van Ruijven, Frans, Pieter, Van Leeuwenhoek)
10. How does Vermeer come to see Grieta at the completion of the novel? Do you
think Grieta comes to any realizations about the artist?
11. Discuss the role of sight in the novel. Who in the novel is truly blind?
Who can 'see'?
12. Who was more important to Vermeer, Griet or his art?
13. Were the artist and Vermeer soulmates that would never be?
14. Does anyone feel sympathetic to the darker characters in the novel? Why?
15. Is the responsibility of the artist to be first loyal to the reality
depicted in his paintings or to the actual subject?
16. Discuss some of the Catholic and Protestant tensions in the novel.
17. Certain themes are repeated in the novel. Discuss these themes and conclude
how the theme relates to the whole of the novel. -- Sight v. blindness,
monochromatic vision v. full spectrum of colors, blood as life, knife.
18. Grieta says she'll never spend the remaining 5 guilders. What do they
represent to her?
19. Did you hope Vermeer would leave Griet anything besides the pearl earrings
in his will?
20. Why does Vermeer ask her to pierce the other ear? How does this uncover his
true feelings for her?
21. In many ways, the primary relationship in this novel appears to be between
Griet and Vermeer. Do you think this is true? How do you feel about Vermeer's
relationship with his wife? How does that come into play?
22. Peering into 17th century Delft shows a small, self-sufficient city. Where
do you think the many-pointed star at the city's center pointed toward? What
was happening elsewhere at that time?
23. Discuss the ways religion affected Griet's relationship with Vermeer. His
wife? Maria Thins?
24. Maria Thins obviously understood Vermeer's art more than his wife did. Why
do you think this was the case? Do you think she shared Griet's talents?
25. Do you think Griet made the right choice when she married the butcher's
son? Did she have other options?
26. How is Delft different to or similar to Los Angeles? Are the social
structures comparable?
27. What does Chevalier believe about the process of painting? What does she
say about things known by the artist but unseen by the audience?
Hey, out there, is anyone else reading Girl With A Pearl Earring?
I just finished it and really liked it. My favorite scene was where she is
crushing the elements to mix the colors.
Here are some neat sites that I came across that give more background and a
sense of the period.
http://www.pearlearring.com/vermeer/
http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vermeer/vermeer.html
http://free.bluemountain.com/eng3/fineart/ARTvermeer2.html
There are lots more.
Anne
To what extent is Griet a product of her time period?
Griet is definitely a product of her time period...She is the servant, has not power
in relationships around her, functions within the household....
How does it differ for a girl today?
I think there will always be the
mentor student relationships whether they are male/female, older male,
younger female...
Vermeer and Griet clearly share some artistic talents. There is an
unspoken understanding between the two that can be acted out in gestures,
moving of the items in the studio, glances, etc. It is intriguing and yet
cannot be touched, or defined, that is why it is so attractive to Vermeer,
it is art. It speaks without words.
Does Griet "do the right thing" when she marries the butcher's son?
That is her only choice, based on her class...she does not think beyond that, or
has the means to go beyond the butcher's son, although she yearns for more.
I read it awhile ago, and don't remember all the details.
But I enjoyed the book immensely. It was a very simple story and I liked the
art aspect of it. I would recommend it to anyone for a quick read, and something to ponder
upon: an artists' domestic existence, and how that might have influenced
their art...
I see tremendous maturity in Griet (hard working, thinks before she speaks, taking the job
in the Vermeer household even though she was scared, etc.). Her infatuation with her "Master"
seems typical of a young girl coming of age - caught between two worlds.
Is the primary relationship in the novel between Griet and Vermeer?
I think the primary relationship in the novel is between the young girl, Griet,
and the woman she becomes.
Does Griet "do the right thing" when she marries the butcher's son?
For a girl in her class there seems to be no other "smart" choice. Griet was
too intelligent to make any other decision.
I'm still trying to decide if I liked the ending - the romantic side of me looks at it
and thinks Vermeer felt the same as Griet and realized that any sort of relationship was
impossible/dishonorable. But why give her the earrings after his death? The realistic
side of me believes that he would not have done that. I don't know.
The art history in the book was fascinating - the grinding of the paints, the layering
of the paints on the canvas. Overall, I enjoyed the novel and am very much interested in
learning more about Vermeer and his paintings.
Sarah
I was delighted to read the responses to the novel--even if they are mostly questions.
I also liked the scene about mixing the elements and the whole depiction of both Griet's
and Vermeer's artistic sensibilities, even when they go to the extreme of piercing her ear.
Somehow one expects artists to be a bit crazed. I also found the ending of the book quite
satisfying, which contrasts with how I often see endings. Marrying the butcher's son seems
the right thing to do since the relationship with Vermeer really can't go anywhere without
playing havoc with many people's lives. Yes, there's sort of a romantic regret but Pieter
is in general a good guy.
Linda
Hi all,
I read it and was glad to read something about The Netherlands, etc. It was very
interesting and as one other said, I am interested in looking at more of his paintings.
I haven't done that much study of art. The details about the paintings and paints were
very interesting. I thought the details about the jobs and the work in the house were
an insight into the different aspects and layers of society at the time.
>I admired all the things Griet had learned from her mother. She was a savvy
shopper and organized cleaner/ launderess. Many--perhaps most young girls now
don't have a clue have to even do simple household chores because they are busy
with extra ciricular activities at school or have jobs. I found the attitude
about a woman's hair interesting and the fact that she cared so much about it.
Young women today rebel against tradition.
It is obvious from the beginning that Griet has an interest and natural skill
in art, beyond what her father has shown her in the past. When she comes to
live in the house of a skilled artist she finds an outlet them. She admires
Vermeer, is fascinated by his talent, and the whole process of color and
placement.
> There is a physical attraction between them--an older man flattered by her
innocent girl's crush, but she is firm in her belief that they cannot cross the
social barriers. She understands the relationship with his wife is practical,
but doesn't assert herself. I think she gives herself to Pieter the Son so she
won't be tempted. To marry him is her only chance for a happy life, since she
has so few other opportunities to meet young men of her own class,
To everyone out there who has read "Girl with a Pearl Earring," please let Bookclique
readers know how you would rate this book and what type of reader you think would enjoy
or not enjoy reading it.
Linda
I really enjoyed the historic setting, learning about the culture or the time
and area. I thought it was a well-crafted story. I'd give it a 5.
Anne
I enjoyed the historical aspect and details about life and work of the times.
I would give it a 4.5. I would recommend it to anyone who likes historical fiction.
It was not a book I would have read without the book club because it was about another
country. But I did enjoy it and the look into the life of the times.
back to top
While everyone is rating "Girl With a Pearl Earring" start reading Book Clique's September
selection: "The Tortilla Curtain" by T.C. Boyle.
From the book jacket:
"Topanga Canyon is home to two couples on a collision course. Los Angeles liberals Delaney
and Kyra Mossbacker lead an ordered sushi-and-recycling existence in a newly gated hilltop
community: he a sensitive nature writer, she an obsessive realtor. Mexican illegals Candido
and America Rincon desperately cling to their vision of the American Dream as they fight off
starvation in a makeshift camp deep in the ravine. And from the moment a freak accident
brings Candido and Delaney into intimate contact, these four and their opposing worlds gradually
intersect in what becomes a tragicomedy of error and misunderstanding."
"Succeeds in stealing the front page news and bringing it home to the great American tradition
of the social novel...a book to appreciate as we peer at the faces of strangers outside our
windows, and wall ourselves in." The Boston Globe
"Lays on the line our national cult of hypocrisy. Comically and painfully he details the smug
wastefulness of the haves and the vile misery of the have-nots."" Barbara Kingsolver
Sarah
I loved this book (Tortilla Curtain). A must read for everyone today.
It is funny as well as thought provoking. Addresses our stereotypes
without being pushy!
Hi All:
Below is an interview with T.C. Boyle about "The Tortilla
Curtain". Thought you might find it interesting.
Sarah
Q: What is the significance of the title of the book?
A: The title comes from a common phrase for the Mexican border, the
tortilla curtain, and I envision it in this way. We have the Iron Curtain,
which as an image is impenetrable. You picture this wall across Eastern
Europe. Then we have the Bamboo Curtain with regard to China. As I see it,
that isn't quite as impenetrable as an iron curtain. It shatters easily and
has gaps in it. It's not uniform. And now we have the Tortilla Curtain,
which is the opposite of impregnable. It's three strips of barbed wire with
some limp tortillas hanging on it. The central question of this, and of the
images of walls that appear throughout the book--the walls, the gates,
walling people out, what do you wall in, all of that--has to do with us as
a species and who owns what. Do you really own your own property? Do you
have a right to fence people out? Do we have an obligation to assist people
who come over that border, that wall, that gate? How is it that Americans
are allowed to have this incredible standard of living while others do not?
All of these questions, I think, are wrapped up in my view of our debate
over immigration.
Q: What is your view on immigration?
A: I feel that, on the one hand, we do have a right to be a sovereign
nation and to protect our borders. Illegal immigration makes a mockery of
legal immigration, and no other country in the world allows this sort of
thing to happen. On the other hand, what I object to even more than that is
this kind of demonizing of a whole race and class of people, as in
considering all Mexicans, all Guatemalans, all Salvadorans to be bad
because they're invading our country as impoverished and ignorant
individuals. The final gesture of the book, I think, shows you that we are
one species and we do have to understand and appreciate that fact despite
ethnic and national differences. But it's a small gesture because I think
that it's a very, very complex issue that people have to work towards
answering.
Q: As an epigraph to the book you use a quotation from The Grapes of Wrath.
Did you have John Steinbeck's novel in mind when you wrote The Tortilla
Curtain?
A: I'm not trying to re-write Steinbeck in any way. I chose the epigraph
from him because I wanted to see how the ethos of the 1930s, and the
traditional liberal ethos of providing for everybody, is applied to today.
Q: The book is essentially set in your own backyard. Did this prompt you to
write it? Did the proposal and passing of Proposition 187 (a bill passed in
California that denies certain social benefits to illegal immigrants)
factor in?
A: The book was somewhat misunderstood because it came out after the 187
vote, and people attacked the book or enjoyed it based on their own
perspective. The book was actually conceived and written prior to
Proposition 187's even being drafted, and I think it came from the fact
that I lived in Los Angeles for sixteen years. Reading about immigration in
the newspaper every day and talking to people at parties like the ones that
Delaney and Kyra give, I began to get a sense of something brewing that was
akin to what happened here in Steinbeck's day, but had the added element
that the Okies of today are not American citizens and they're of a
different race.
Q: Do you see The Tortilla Curtain as a political novel?
A: I think obviously people will want to talk about 187, and the campaign
to draft a national bill like 187, but this book isn't a political novel in
the sense that it takes a position and is meant to have people agree or
disagree with that position. It's political in a different sense. I don't
think political novels work because they have "an ax to grind." If you have
"an ax to grind," then you have to sacrifice aesthetics and the discovery
of the book in order to make your point or to make people join your party
or to see your point of view. I write a book like The Tortilla Curtain from
having lived here and picked up on everything going on that finally
resulted in 187, and from trying to sort out my own feelings. I don't have
a position when I begin a book, any book. I write in order to put some
hypothetical elements together and see what will happen. I don't know
what's going to happen even chapter by chapter, and I don't know what's
going to happen at the end of the book. That's a process of discovery,
which is why I write novels rather than, let's say, a polemic, to discover
how I feel about the issues, but particularly about this issue.
Q: Critics and readers on both sides of the immigration issue had mixed
reactions to The Tortilla Curtain. Why do you think the book generated so
much controversy?
A: I'm not presenting any answers, and I think that's why the book was very
controversial. People want a polemic. They want to raise their fist in the
air and say, "Yes, you're on our side." Well, I'm not on your side. I am
presenting a fable, a fiction, so that you can judge for yourself. A lot of
people simply read the book and flew off the handle because it either
accords with what they want it to or it doesn't. People want things to be
very clear-cut. Here's the issue and here's how I stand on it. But I think
it's much more complex. I think it has to do with biology. You may notice
that Delaney is a nature writer. Well, nature writers are generally very
liberal, even radically liberal on all issues except one--the issue of
immigration, on which they are more reactionary than anyone. The reason for
this is they argue that there are six billion people on the planet now, and
who is the enemy of the environment? Who is the enemy of clean air, clean
water, all the dwindling animal species? Well, it's us. Us, human beings.
Our species. And this is an element of the book which is very important and
has been overlooked. There is this population pressure on the world in all
the industrial nations, not simply the United States. England, Germany, and
France all have huge influxes of immigrants, and I'm wondering, what does
this mean and how are people going to deal with it? I think ultimately, as
you see in The Tortilla Curtain, it may simply exacerbate racist tendencies.
Q: What research did you do to prepare for the writing of The Tortilla Curtain?
A: It may sound silly, but I've always felt an affection for Mexico and
Mexican culture. I grew up in New York, as you may know, and the language I
studied from eighth grade on was Spanish. In fact, the only language I can
speak besides English is Spanish. I've always been attracted to the
culture, and even before I moved to California I had traveled in Mexico and
Central America. When I decided to write this book, I knew that I had to
see one thing only. And that was the fence at the border. So I went back to
Tijuana, where I hadn't been for some years, and spent the day there. I
talked to people. I walked along the fence. I saw people waiting to climb
over the fence with little plastic bags with everything they owned in them.
I saw the border guards eyeing me suspiciously from the other side. I saw
the huge fence the U.S. is building out into the water, and so on, just to
get a feel for that again and see what it's like. And it's a real war zone,
it's a real disaster, Tijuana, let me tell you.
Q: The search for the American dream is a theme that resounds throughout
The Tortilla Curtain. Do you think there is such a thing as the American
dream?
A: I've addressed this throughout all of my work, our material obsession,
all the stuff I've written about eating and how much we have and the
surfeit of things; my story "Filthy with Things," for instance. What is the
American dream? Well, the American dream is, "you pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, you make it, you have a house, you live in the suburbs, and you
drive a new car." What is that? That is a material dream. If you have
nothing, then you have material dreams. Presumably, if you have an
education and you have enough to eat, then you can have aesthetic dreams or
humanistic dreams. Easy for me to say. I have every material thing I could
want. I didn't become a writer to make money. I became a writer because
that is my obsession and that's how I view the world. As a novelist, my job
is to try to inhabit people of any culture, to be a person of another sex,
or another race, or another ethnic group. I think it helps me to understand
them, and it helps the reader to understand them, too.
Q: What writers do you admire? Have any of them influenced your work?
A: I admire hundreds of writers of the past and present and many, many of
them have influenced my work. A writer who has influenced me with regard to
this type of book is Steinbeck because I'm re-examining his ethos, as we
said. In terms of satire, people like Flannery O'Connor and Evelyn Waugh
have been influential on me, writers who are sort of angry about the way
things are happening in society, and so they hold up certain behaviors to
ridicule.
Q: What are you working on now?
A: I'm working on a historical novel entitled Riven Rock about the
psychopathology of love. It's set in my new hometown of Santa Barbara, and
it deals with actual historical figures. The story centers around Stanley
McCormick, the son of the man who invented the reaper, and his wife,
Katherine Dexter. It's quite a wonderful and extraordinary love story.
T. Coraghessan Boyle was born in 1948 and grew up in Peekskill, New York.
He is a graduate of the State University of New York at Potsdam, and
received his doctorate in nineteenth-century English literature from the
University of Iowa in 1977. Since 1977, Boyle has taught creative writing
at the University of Southern California. While in college, Boyle exchanged
his middle name, John, for the unusual Coraghessan, the name of one of his
Irish ancestors.
Boyle is the author of Descent of Man (1979), Water Music (1982), Budding
Prospects (1984), Greasy Lake (1985), World's End (1987, winner of the
PEN/Faulkner Award for fiction), If the River Was Whiskey (1989), East Is
East (1990), The Road to Wellville (1993), which was made into a movie
starring Anthony Hopkins, and Without a Hero (1994). His work has appeared
in major American magazines, including The New Yorker, Esquire, Harper's,
The Paris Review, and The Atlantic Monthly. Boyle lives with his wife,
Karen, and their three children near Santa Barbara, California, in a house
designed in 1909 by the architect Frank Lloyd Wright.
Courtesy of Penguin Putnam, Inc. at
http://www.readinggroupguides.com/guides/tortilla_curtain-author.asp#bio .
When I finished this book, I couldn't help wishing there were several more chapters
that would show me how each character's life was changed (or not) by the happenings
in the last chapter. But of course the author left me with the dilemma of thinking
through for myself the many questions this novel raised and trying to come to terms
with my own feelings concerning each!!! I didn't like Delaney from the beginning and
felt the same at the end. Kyra felt cold even though I knew she loved her animals.
I never did warm to her. I am still processing my feelings about Candido and America.
When Candido couldn't cope with the betrayal of his first wife and ended up crossing the
Mexican Border, it seemed like "his knuckles were smashed and smashed again but he held
on because there was nothing else he could do"(just as the author described him at the
very end.
With Sept. 11, the immigration issues seem very different then when the book came out.
Much to think about.
Boyle has been praised for not providing any easy or definitive answers to the questions
the novel explores. The novel helps us see the view of life from both sides of this great
cultural and material divide. It frustrated and saddened me....at times, I was
sympathetic/empathetic to both the Rincons and the Mossbachers. I know that there are
no easy solutions.
Did you notice how Delaney's nature writing came to focus mainly on the coyote?
Though Delaney himself never makes the connection, his writing about animals and the natural
world relates directly to the very human problems of race and immigration that he deals with
on a daily basis - Everything that Delaney writes about the coyote applies equally well to
the problem of immigrants and "The Tortilla Curtain."
Delaney writes, "The coyote is not to blame - he is only trying to survive, to make a living,
to take advantage of the opportunities available to him." And later in the column, "The coyotes
keep coming, breeding up to fill in the gaps, moving in where the living is easy. They are
cunning, versatile, hungry and unstoppable." You can see his mixed feelings about immigrants
in these passages.
When a species is pushed out of its original habitat, it often pushes back as it tries to adapt
to the new situation. Most of the whites in the story seem to feel that the Mexicans are
invading and overwhelming them, encroaching on their own territory, and that a backlash is
an appropriate response. But the book raises the question of which group is truly the invader;
California originally belonged to Mexico, of course, and the US basically took it by force.
Which group is the invader, and which group is being pushed back? Delaney does not explore
these questions directly, but his columns and reflections on nature allow him to think through
the issues involved, and give us an important glimpse into his changing modes of thought as he
gradually sheds his liberal humanistic views for more explicitly racist and angry ones.
Candido and America crossed the border in search of a better life for themselves and their
unborn child. They do not ask for much and are willing to work hard, yet they are constantly
met with resistence and failure. There are numerous references to Candido's bad luck. Is he
unlucky? Is there anything he could have done to have changed his bad luck? What does this
story say about the American Dream?
Also....Boundaries-both real and imagined- play a large role in the novel, especially the front
gate at Arroyo Blanco Estates. Do the walls and gates around Arroyo Blanco work?
In what other instances do boundaries appear and what do they represent?
Sarah
WOW! I did NOT expect that ending. Makes the mind go forth and wonder
how D reacted to the extended hand!'
Over the next week we will be winding down the discussion for "The Tortilla Curtain" and I
would encourage everyone to take a few moments and rate this book 1(lowest) to five(highest).
Also, you might want to start looking for a copy of next month's selection: "Black House"
by Stephen King and Peter Straub.
Here are a few questions to think about as we finish the discussion:
Delaney, for all his liberal credentials, holds a fair number of stereotypes about immigrants,
especially Mexicans. Does he find his views overturned or reinforced over the course of the book?
Can/do illegal Mexican immigrants find a better situation in the US?
How do you feel September 11 has changed illegal immigration from Mexico?
Why do Americans so often make use of the same illegal Mexican immigrants that they fear and hate?
The novel alternates between the point of view of the Mossbachers and the Rincons, allowing
the reader to enter the lives of both families. Do you feel that you got to know each of the
couples equally well? Was the author fair in his portrayal of each of the couples? Is he too
harsh in his portrayal of the Mossbachers, as one reviewer suggests?
The novel concludes with Delaney confronting Candido with a gun, followed by a mud slide.
In an almost simultaneous moment, Candido realizes his baby is missing and reaches down to
offer Delaney a hand. One is a frightening image and the other an act of generosity. How
do these contrasting images play off one another? Did the conclusion leave you with a
feeling of hope or despair?
The author does not offer a solution to the problem of illegal immigration, for which he was
praised by several reviewers. Do you think he shoud have offered a solution?
I would rate it a 5. It was a fascinating read. I have been much more aware the last few weeks
of articles in the paper concerning immigration - two concerned Mexicans crossing the same way
as Candido and America did. Most comments were negative - citing the cost to tax payers for
health issues, taking jobs needed by Americans, etc. Although I do not have the answers, I now
look at the issues from a little different perspective as I think about the "American Dream" and
"individuals in search of a better life for themselves" (as was mentioned in one of the previous e-mails).
I would also rate this book a "5". It has made me think about a very important issue in our
society today - an important issue in our community. This isn't just about southern California
and the states along the "Tortilla Curtain" - this impacts Lafayette, IN.
Wow! I didn't get the book from my 'hold' until late, so I am not quite finished with it yet.
So far, I'd give it a 4.5 to a 5. It is certainly thought provoking. It is well written.
I have already recommended it to friends. Lastly, it is one I would never have picked up on
my own. Thanksfor helping me stretch my boundaries a little.
Rita
back to top
Welcome to the October discussion of the book "Black House", by Stephe King and Peter Straub. We decided October would be
a good time to try out a horror novel. "Black House" is a sequel to the 1984 Straub/King collaboration: "The Talisman", but it is not
necessary to have read the first book to enjoy this one. Though the main character is the same in this book as the last, he was a child
in the first and he has no memory of the events of the first book. Actually, if you have not read "The Talisman" you will experience
much more suspense and wonder as the events of "Black House" unfold. This is not a book for the squeamish. King and Straub
don't hold back on graphic details, but there is also a lot of good character development and thrills.
As we start our discussion I am interested in knowing how many of you have read King before. If you haven't, do you have any
preconceived ideas about his work? Is there anyone in the group who has read the first book, "The Talisman"?
Below is a review from Publisher's Weekly:
"Today's literature is plagued by sequelitis... But here's a marvelous exception. Seventeen years after King and Straub's first collaboration,
The Talisman comes an immensely satisfying follow-up, a brilliant and challenging dark fantasy that fans of both author s are going to love.
Page by page, the novel reads as equal parts King and Straub, with the Maine master's exuberance and penchant for excess restrained
by Straub's generally more elegant )though no more potent) approach. But the book, far more than its predecessor, is set explicitly in the
King universe, with particular ties to the Dark Tower series... The book abounds with literary allusions, many to the King-verse...
[T]here's so much here to revel in, from expertly executed sequences of terror, awe or passion -- the novel is a deep reservoir of
genuine emotion -- to some of the most wonderful characters to spring from a page in years, to a story whose energy is so high
and craft so accomplished that most readers will wish it ran twice its great length. What is probably the most anticipated novel of
the year turns out to be its most memorable to date, a high point in both the King and Straub canons. This will be a monster bestseller,
and deservedly so."--Publisher's Weekly
******************************************
S. Neal Starkey
Campus Circulation Supervisor
Tippecanoe County/Ivy Tech Library
I have read some of King's earlier books...many moons ago. I found it
hard to continue reading them. His darkness is difficult for me. I
choose to not read them any longer. I shall begin this one....
Here is another review of the book by Kevin Quigley:
The cinema starts at once: we begin the novel Black House two hundred feet above Coulee County, floating high above the
township of French Landing, soaring through its police station (where we glimpse two cops arguing and hear the raucous,
ebullient voice of radio announcer George Rathbun for the first time), cruising through its darkened streets, and taking a
short tour through Maxton Elder Care facility. All of this is done in one sweeping journey, one Steadicam shot, told in the
conspirator’s second-person we. In a stinking back room at Maxton’s, we are asked to pause for a moment, to take in the
sight of an extremely unpleasant fellow lying awake, a fellow who may or may not be faking an advanced case of
Alzheimer’s disease. A powerful smell of excrement contaminates the air, we are told, and then, in almost a whisper: it is
Charles Burnside, ‘Burny,’ who we have most come to see. Thus we begin the surreal trip into the pages of Black House.
In the first hundred pages, we are introduced to the citizenship of French Landing
Dale Gilberton, the kind-hearted sheriff; the Thunder Five, college-educated, beer-brewing bikers; Fred, Judy, and Tyler
Marshall, a small family on the verge of a tragedy; Wendell Green, a dangerously determined journalist; Henry Leyden,
a blind man whose radio personalities include the effusive George Rathbun; and, of course, our old friend Jack Sawyer.
The years have not been kind to Jack. When we finally meet up with him (a hundred or so pages in), we learn that he is
a retired homicide detective, and that he quit the force in Los Angeles due to a traumatic event that nearly forced him to
remember a past he is trying to forget. And just lately, he has been seeing bird’s feathers appearing out of nowhere, and
finding tiny blue robin’s eggs everywhere he looks. Jack tries to dismiss these bouts of weirdness as waking dreams,
but as they continue, it seems that they may be connected to something else happening in town, something a lot worse.
A monster has come to French Landing, you see, a monster known as The Fisherman, a serial child-killer with a taste for
flesh. His crimes neatly parallel those of a man named Albert Fish, who, in the 1930’s killed dozens of children and ate them.
In French Landing, three children are now dead, and a fourth young Tyler Marshall is captured by the Fisherman while we,
the audience, must sit and watch.
But while the brutal child killer wants nothing more than to carve up young Tyler for dinner, something else the Fisherman’s
higher power, you might say is preventing him from it. For Tyler is special. Tyler has a great wild talent that creatures corrupt
and evil will stop at nothing to harness. It is here we learn that the thrust of Black House connects intimately with Stephen
King’s sprawling epic, The Dark Tower, and that the events between these covers might impact the multi-volume work
for years to come.
When we last saw Jack, he had returned from a cross-country and cross-dimension trip to locate a mystical Talisman
that would save his mother’s life, an act that carried reverberations throughout worlds without number. The parallel world
Jack traveled in to find The Talisman a medieval-type land where magic is the norm and men can fly was a place called
The Territories. Through the years, Jack has put great distance between himself and The Territories, so much so that he
now denies its existence. Now, because to the world-hopping terror that is The Fisherman, Jack must learn to reclaim
that childhood fairyland and everything that comes with it if he is ever to save young Tyler’s life.
Black House is literally unclassifiable. It’s a direct sequel to The Talisman, a terrific epic of a book but, at its essence, a
standard quest novel. Black House edges more toward the horrific, showcasing both authors’ more gruesome sides
(a particularly grisly scene happens quite early on; we are asked to study not glimpse, study the corpse of one of The
Fisherman’s prey. It’s not an easy segment to read or turn away from.) But right when you have it easily pegged as a
horror novel, we are swept into the land of the police procedural (one memorable scene takes place outside where
the aforementioned corpse is found.) And as soon as we get comfortable there, it’s time for a trip into The Territories,
and the great fantastical wonders and terrors that land holds. The fact that it can’t be easily categorized helps it fit in
well with King’s Dark Tower books, an ongoing series of novels located somewhere in the muddle of the
western-fantasy-sci-fi-horror-romance genre. And fit in it must: the authors here have taken great pains to cement
this novel in the ever-growing pantheon of books Stephen King is weaving into his epic work. In interviews, King
has said that the Dark Tower connections were all Straub’s idea; if they were also all his execution, then he has done
his homework. Black House ties together the Dark Tower series proper, Hearts in Atlantis, Desperation, and the
novella The Little Sisters of Eluria, while at once remaining its own story as well as the sequel to one of each author’s
most popular books.
What makes Black House work is its sense of individuality while working in steeped traditions. In addition to the Dark
Tower stuff, the authors have given us allusions to Edgar Allen Poe (one of the chapter titles is Night’s Plutonian Shore)
and Dickens (the title similarity to Bleak House is not incidental; in fact, one particularly scary section in the Black House
parallels the foggy opening of the former), but we are made very aware that Black House is its own book early on. The
opening chapters which, to tell the truth, are sometimes excruciatingly slow establish the novel’s main characters, thrusting
us into the world of French Landing for nearly a hundred pages before we ever catch up with Jack Sawyer. This device
forces us to slow down and see the townspeople as flesh-and-blood, not just supporting characters to a guy we knew a long time ago.
It’s a shrewd move: instead of being shown who they are in relation to Jack, we see who Jack is in relation to them.
Also driving the book is the flat-out mystery at its core. Where has Tyler been taken? What does the Fisherman want with him, if
he’s not going to kill him? What, exactly is Black House, and what supernatural forces surround it? And how the hell does this
all interlock with The Dark Tower?
All these questions are answered, and King’s Constant Readers will pick up on things a little earlier than their casual-reader friends.
This is not to say that only the true fans will get it, only that those with a greater knowledge of past works may enjoy this volume
a little more.
There are only a few problems with Black House, and while they are minor, they do bear repeating. Like the opening of
The Talisman, this book starts off seemingly directionless. In the former book, we are faced with about twenty pages of
description and slow characterization before we can truly get into the story. While we recognize later that the opening was
necessary and understand why it was necessary, it’s always a bit of a challenge to break on through. The same thing happens
here, and it goes on a bit longer about forty pages. It’s certainly necessary; we are being introduced to a large cast of characters
and we need to see them in their natural habitats before seeing them thrust into the mystery but it’s still slightly tedious. By the
time we discover the legless body in an abandoned restaurant, we are ready for real action, and the novel doesn’t disappoint.
At times, the crow’s-eye view of events and the constant present-tense are distracting, but not overly so. It’s a testament to
both King’s and Straub’s talent as authors that they are able to pull off both gimmicks so well. At Black House’s best, the
pages simply fly, and at times it seems as if you are watching the action rather than reading it. The sudden and shocking twists
near the end seem perfectly fair in the context of the book, even though one of them had me nearly throwing the hardcover
against the wall in anger. When a book elicits that much emotion in you, you know you have a keeper.
One last thing: for many King readers, The Talisman and Black House are the only Straub they have read. This is a mistake.
The Hellfire Club is one of the best novels I’ve ever read, and I urge everyone to do the same. For those interested in a
precursor to The Sunlight Home in Talisman, go visit the boarding house in Shadowland. And if you want an introduction to
what I think of as the slow Straub style, do yourself a favor and read Mr. X. Straub’s books may take a little more patience
than the often fast-paced land of Stephen King, but I know from experience that the wait is worth it.
******************************************
S. Neal Starkey
Here are some interesting web sites devoted to Black House and the authors:
http://www.fireandwater.com/microsites/blackhouse/
the official page with great atmosphere. The fisherman's messages pop up on your screen periodically. Click on news reports
to see the articles about the fisherman in the La Riviere Herald.
http://www.darktowercompendium.com/
go here to see how Black House fits into the mythos of the Stephen King Dark Tower series.
http://members.tripod.com/~charnelhouse/
a well maintained and respected site for the latest Stephen King news and trivia.
http://www.stephenking.com/
the official King page
http://www.net-site.com/straub/
the official Peter Straub page
******************************************
S. Neal Starkey
Do you consider Black House to be a horror novel or a fantasy novel? Where do we draw the line between horror
and fantasy? Can a clear line be drawn? It has been described by some as a dark fantasy. Do you think that is an
accurate description?
Does this novel make you want to go back and read the Talisman?
Did anyone find this book too graphic and gory?
It was difficult for me to be scared or to find this to be a horror story, even
though I was expecting that. I would classify it on the fantasy side. The
sections that were to gain suspense became boring for me. It reminded me of a
movie that pans slowly down the hallway to build suspense...which I would fast
forward to get to the "BOO!". Great descriptions. Easy reading. But I found
myself fast forwarding through the second half of the book.
Here is an interview with Peter Straub from Publisher's Weekly:
PW Talks with Peter Straub
August 20, 2001
PW met with Peter Straub, coauthor with Stephen King of Black House, sequel to the 1984 bestseller The Talisman, in
Straub's townhouse on Manhattan's Upper West Side. Well scrubbed and clean-cut in pressed shirt and slacks, Straub
looks more like a banker on holiday than anyone's likely image of a winner of numerous Bram Stoker and World Fantasy
awards. Or at least until he speaks. Then the rush of words testifies to his passion for writing and for books-and to his
good humor, embodied in the full-size Howdy Doody puppet sitting in a chair nearby, bearing silent witness to our conversation.
PW: Why did you decide to write a sequel to The Talisman?
PS: The bluntest answer is that he [King] sort of asked me if I'd be interested. A more nuanced answer is that Stephen
and I had been very interested in this, seeing that he and I again seemed to be converging a bit in what we were thinking
about. We both seemed to be obsessing about Rebecca at the same time, and thinking about "Bartleby, the Scrivener."
And we both had come to the same conclusions independently. That the book would be mainly about Jack Sawyer, that
Jack Sawyer would be in some melancholic position, and would not remember what he had once done. That the point
of the book would be the recovery of that achievement through some necessity. And that it would be a lot more like a
horror novel than a fantasy novel. All that was gratifying, and made us feel less anxious. I think we both did feel
anxious-you didn't know if you were going to endanger your friendship, or enhance it, and you never know how much
control you're going to give up, or how much you want to give up.
PW: Things went smoothly?
PS: It was as if the book had its own sail and wind. We really knew where we were going. I went to Florida about a
year and a half ago, where Steve had rented a place. He got a room for me at a health resort nearby. He came over to
my bungalow, and I went to his, and we made up a fast-forward version of most of the novel. When we were done,
we had about 35 or 37 single-spaced pages, but in 14-point print because Steve's eyes are lousy and he needed big
print. It looked skimpy to me. I said, "Are you sure this is going to be enough stuff?" He laughed and said, "You bet it is!"
As I discovered when I began; I think I wrote 50 pages without ever getting off the first page.
PW: How did the writing progress?
PS: Like a Ping-Pong game, except with one guy in New York and the other in Maine or Florida, and with a long table.
I shouldn't admit this, but it's written chunk by chunk. I had to start it, because one of Steve's better ideas was that we
set it in the heart of Wisconsin, which I knew from childhood vacations.
PW: Do some of the characters belong more to you and some more to King? I'm particularly interested in Henry Leyden
[Jack Sawyer's blind friend], who nearly walks away with the book.
PS: Oh, that's the point. We wanted to make somebody really lovable and cool. Before we started, Steve said,
"Let's put somebody in there the readers are going to love, and then we'll kill him."
PW: Even though the book was written "chunk by chunk," it's difficult to discern who wrote which chunk. One thing
I was looking for were italics, which King uses more than you do. PS: Yeah, not to mention caps and exclamation points.
So sometimes I'd stuff in caps and exclamation points. But now and then I made a deliberate clank in tone, so that
somebody reading would say, "Okay, now that was Peter, now it's Steve." But there are times now when I look at
something, and I think, "Jeez, Steve was really good," or "I was really good," and I'm wrong! I don't remember who
wrote what. The way we did that was to establish a tone that was neither one of us in the beginning, and stick to it for
a long time. From time to time during the writing I caught myself thinking that this collaboration could be working itself
out in an unusual way, by permitting its partners' talents to complement one anther, creating something unique. My tendency
to linger over visual details in support of a kind of solidity was held in check by King's momentum, and sometimes his
desire to zip along was contained by mine to slow things down. In the end, the pacing feels just about right. I am very
fond of metafiction, intertextuality, a kind of deliberate irresolution. The tone of my things is very different from the tone
of his. Certainly I bring a tendency toward complexity that Steve doesn't want to have. And one of the reasons he was
pleased at the beginning was that he could see we were going to have a bit of that, and he liked it. But I like a lot of writers
that he can't stand, and he likes a lot of writers for whom I don't have much time. I'm not sure if Steve likes Nabokov very much.
PW: How can he not like Nabokov's magic with words?
PS: It's not the kind of magic that Steve cares for. Steve has within him, like a glowing coal, a sense of the sacredness of
the story itself, and anything that gets in the way of that is frippery.
PW: Why did you agree to bring the novel within the Dark Tower mythology? After all, you're your own writer.
PS: It was my idea to incorporate it. One reason is that I wanted to know what that stuff was. I had no idea what a
"Breaker" was, what the Tower was, what the Crimson King was. And The Talisman is all but a Dark Tower book. When
I suggested it to Steve, he said, "I'm glad you said that, because I don't know if I can keep it out. At this point, everything I
write is connected to it."
PW: What's in the future for your solo writing?
PS: I want to publish something soon as I can. I have a big idea that, like most of my ideas, is actually two ideas, and I'll
figure out how to sew them together. And sometime I suppose there will be another collaboration with Steve.
PW: Will we have to wait another 17 years?
PS: I don't think so. The life expectancy of the authors would make that an actuarial risk. But sometime after five years probably.
We sort of know a bit about it. Besides, fantasy novels are supposed to be in trilogies.
I tried reading this one, but I didn't make it past the first two chapters. The gore/horror didn't bother me ( I read a lot of
suspense/thriller that includes some pretty graphically depicted crime scenes) but the perspective of the narrator was
difficult to read. I really didn't like the zooming in here, then out, then zooming in there. Does it change further into the book?
Do King and Straub normally write from this third person perspective? I have only read "The Stand" by King (it was absolutely wonderful).
Sarah - who gave it a good go
PS: I did find it interesting reading about the collaboration of these two authors. I might go back and try reading "Tha Talisman".
It's that time again, please rate Black House from 1 to 5 (5 being the highest). I know everyone has opinions, let's hear them!
For November, we will be discussing "The Emperor of Ocean Park" by Stephen Carter.
I'd give it a 4. It was a little slow starting out but it picked up speed and the last 200 pages went by quick. It wasn't too scary,
but I really enjoyed the fantasy aspect. I want to read more of King's novels that relate to the territories to get a larger picture.
I enjoyed the fantasy aspect, and there were some great characters. I
didn't like the gorey parts. I also didn't like the author's perspective -
they gave so many clues as to what was coming next, it ruined the suspense
for me. I give it a 4.
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Hello Book Clique Members,
The November reading selection is "Emperor of Ocean Park," a 2002 novel by Stephen L. Carter. Carter, who
is a Yale Law Professor, wrote 7 acclaimed non-fiction works before penning "Emperor," his fiction debut. The
book has been described as "a large, stirring novel of suspense that is, at the same time, a work of astute social
observation. Emperor of Ocean Park is set in two privileged worlds: the upper crust African American society
of the eastern seaboard...and the inner circle of an Ivy League law school. It tells the story of a complex family
with a single, seductive link to the shadowlands of crime." "Emperor" spent many weeks on the best seller list this
summer, and many readers found it to be a very compelling, can't-put-it-down kind of read. Try it, see if you agree,
and then tell us what you think.
> "Emperor" spent many weeks on the best seller list this summer, and many
> readers found it to be a very compelling, can't-put-it-down kind of
> read. Try it, see if you agree, and then tell us what you think.
>
Well, I could certainly put it down the first few chapters! However, it did
pick up pace. I was thinking the main character was either dense (but then he
did graduate from law school and is currently teaching) or this is such a new
experience that he does not look around him. I also thought that I would
not "look" / expect the upcoming events if my life had been as quiet as his. I
had the advantage as a reader of a mystery book to know in advance. Yet, I did
think him a bit "slow" even after the events began.
LOVED the book! Could not put it down.
Which aspects of The Emperor of Ocean Park did you like best: The insights into the lives of an upper class
African American family, or the suspenseful legal thriller elements? Do you think they worked equally well?
Some critics have compared Carter's skill and pacing in this book to early John Grisham novels; others have
deemed it overlong and too leisurely paced. What do you think?
I found the beginning to be too leisurely paced, but it also let me understand
the family which was necessary. However, the pace increased. I did enjoy
learing about the culture of this family during that period. Fascinating. It
let us learn about the father which helped me understand the ending of the
book. I loved the book and looked for others...discovered this was his first.
Hope more come!
I love mysteries! This book wasn't your ordinary mystery although that was an important aspect and I really did
not figured out why "we" were waiting for a hurricane! I thought the mystery element was quite good. But this book
was much more. No doubt the author's profession helped him make the interactions at the university so interesting
and realistic. I did have a little trouble getting all the characters straight in my mind (I finally had to write them down
at a certain point in my reading).
I felt I got to know the African American family the book was centered around. The ongoing musings of Talcott made
me take a look at my own white oriented liberal views about racial prejudice - on many different levels. I thought the
author did a marvelous job of making the different aspects work together to make a compelling story - the
"legal thriller elements", the interactions and "going ons" of staff at a prestigious university and the interactions of the
African American family members with each other and other characters in the book. It was quite lengthy but once
I got past the first 50 pages I had no trouble staying with it to the surprising end. A great read.
I really loved this book. I loved its leisurely, intricate story and getting to know the characters so well. I found it very
interesting to be inside the thoughts of an African American and his views on the "paler" nation. However, I must admit
I was a bit let down by the ending. The "big family secret" and the climax didn't seem to live up to all of the previous
suspense. Overall, I found the journey much more satisfying than the destination. Anyone else agree?
Book Clique members:
It's time to rate "The Emperor of Ocean Park". Rate it with a number from 1 - 5, with 5 being the highest rating.
Give us your last thoughts about this book, if you have time.
I would give it a 4 - a very good read. I agree that the ending was
something of an anticlimax, but I did get involved with the family story and
the New England settings. Good choice!
This is a 5. I especially liked the attention given to the development of each of the characters. The ending
("solution of the mystery") was a bit different but okay. I didn't feel that was the most important aspect of this book -
for me, anyway - as it is in most "mysteries" I read. I just felt like I really knew these people by the time I finished the
book and had acquired some new insights about Life.
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Hello Book Clique subscribers!
December is the month we traditionally set aside for an open discussion of the best books you read in 2002.
There are no restrictions, tell us about any genre, time period, or setting. The only stipulation is that you
should have read it this year. This is a great way to rave about your favorite books.
We are adding another feature to the open discussion this year: the "2002 Book Clique Subscriber Recommendations".
Send in a short review (about 50 words) of your favorite book and we may publish your review in a brochure to be
handed out at the library. This is a great way to share your favorite book with others and to promote participation in Book Clique.
We will be looking forward to your raves and reviews.
One of my favorites this year was titled "By Thomas". It was a compilation
of the diaries of Mrs. Thomas Jefferson. In light of the controversy over
his descendants with Sally Hemming, this book gave a very interesting
picture of the life of one of our country's founders. I never like the
subject of History as a child in school. This book gave me a very different
attitude about the subject.
Mrs. Jefferson in essence, gave her life in an effort to give Jefferson a
son to continue the family name. I also had the opportunity to visit
Monticello this past summer. That certainly didn't hurt in bringing the
book to life. Life in those times was like living in a different
country/world than we live in today.
My favorite read for 2002 goes to "Rebecca's Tale" by Sally Beauman. This
past Oct. my Mystery Book Discussion group chose the classic "Rebecca" by
Daphne du Maurier. Even though I had read this book some years ago, I was
intrigued by the characters and the sense of being incomplete. In searching
for more information on "Rebecca," I came across the sequel. It is written in
a similar style but with a little less drama. This book can be read and
enjoyed if you have read the original or not.
I found this series of little mystery novels by Martha C. Lawrence.
Most people might think they are fluffy, but I enjoyed them IMMENSELY.
These books are about a private investigator, but she is psychic.
It sounds hokey, I know, but it is written very believeably...she is the
reluctant psychic, sometimes her intuition is crystal clear, and also she can
be in the company of the killer and not realize it.
There are five books in the series.
the first one is Murder in Scorpio,
then, The Cold Heart of Capricorn
Next, Aquarius Descending,
Piscese Rising,
and the last book Ashes of Aries.
I would recommend reading them in order.
I flew thru them so fast and not in order, I think I will read them again....
I loved them!!!!
Speaking of psychics... :-)
I started a new author, Kay Hooper, this year. I have enjoyed all of her books that I have read so far.
The "Shadows" series blends a bit of mystery and romantic suspense. A psychic is featured as the main
character in all of them - either as a psychic police sketch artist or a FBI agent - with some sort of psychic
link to the killer. The titles in the series are: Stealing Shadows, Out of the Shadows, and Hiding in the Shadows.
I also discovered Iris Johansen's Eve Duncan series. Another series that blends mystery and romantic suspense.
Eve is a forensic sculptor and creates/molds a "face" on skulls to help police match skeletal remains to victims.
Eve is driven to do this by her ongoing search for her daughter, Bonnie, that was killed and whose remains
were never found. A bit of the "paranormal" is also part of this series (but does not play a large role) as Bonnie
periodically "visits" Eve to give her comfort or advice. The first in the series is "The Face of Deception" but my
favorite of the series is "The Search" with includes a search and rescue dog in a prominent role.
More favorites to come...
Sarah :-)
What books are you giving as gifts this holiday season? What's on your list?
What holiday books are your reading this year?
Some popular ones are Grisham's "Skipping Christmas," Baldacci's "Christmas Train," Karon's "Esther's Gift," and
Macomber's "Christmas Basket." Have any of you read these? What did you think? Do you suggest any other "season's readings"?
My list includes:
Christmas on Conrad Street by Marcia Evanick - a romance set in Misty Harbor, ME.
Home Again by Annie Smith (aka Annie Kimberlin) - a romance set in Ohio, about a school teacher and a dog trainer.
Angel on Mill Street (picture book about a Newfoundland "angel" dog who lends assistance to a man on Christmas Eve)
Old Dog Cora and the Christmas Tree (picture book about Cora, newfoundland dog, whose owners think she is
too old to help haul the Christmas tree)
A Dog Year: 12 Months, 4 Dogs, and Me by John Katz - nonfiction about the year in Katz' life where he gets not one,
but two Border Collies (Devon and Homer), to add to his two labrador (Julius and Stanley) house.
Also, this NEAT little "journal" titled "Books to Check Out." The cover looks like an old date due card - complete with stamped dates!!
I would tell you all what books I am giving as gifts this season....but the recipients are members of Book Clique
and I wouldn't want to spoil the suprise!
Happy Reading,
Sarah :-)
Some of my favorite reads this year include:
Picture Maker by Penina Spinka -- a fascinating tale of a Native America women in pre-Colombian America who
lived with several different tribes in her lifetime.
Folly by Laurie King -- not a new book, but a favorite that I re-read with great pleasure. The story of a woman
who goes to an island to build herself a house and exorcise the tragedies of her past.
The collected stories of Richard Yates -- Yates is brilliant at the short story form.
Housewrights by Art Corriveau -- the story of two brothers in the early 20th century who travel from place to
place building houses for people.
Keep those favorite reads coming....it's great to hear word of mouth about good books.
One of my favorite books this year was Year of Ice by Brian Malloy. It's set in
the late seventies. It is a story about a high school senior, macho football
player coming to grips with being gay while at the same time trying to cope
with his mom's death. It didn't get a great review from Publisher's Weekly, but
for the life of me I don't know why. The characters are very real and it feels
like 1978 as I remember it. Way worth reading.
I'm reading "Explorer" by C. J. Cherryh - the SIXTH book in her (science fiction) "Foreigner" setting.
The whole series is good, but this one is the best of the series - the culmination of the second trilogy where
you find out about a lot of secrets that have been kept for, in some cases, several hundred years. It's a bit
reminiscent of The Sparrow, but it doesn't use the real world as a starting point as much as that book.
Cherryh's books in general are very suspenseful. She specializes in imagining human-alien contact. The
"Foreigner" books are specifically centered on how language reflects culture and creates a mindset that
can't be shared by another species.
--Ian
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A Very Merry (and snowy) New Year to you all:
Welcome to the January Book Clique discussion of Chocolat by Joanne Harris. Harris was born in her grandparents'
candy shop in France and is the great-granddaughter of a woman known locally as a witch and a healer. Half-French, half-English,
she teaches French at a school in Northern England.
Hmmmm....sound a tad familiar?
Here are some published reviews of Chocolat. Do you agree? Disagree? Let everyone know.
"I never met a chocolate I didn't like."
Deanna Troi, Star Trek Next Generation
Sarah :-)
Reviews:
"A first novel that rather cloyingly describes the transformations that overtake the residents of a small French village when
a mysterious stranger and her daughter arrive and open a chocolate shop. The townspeople of Lansquenet live in the present
day, but the patterns of their lives were established long before they were bornand change very little from year to year.
A hamlet straight out of Flaubert, Lansquenet is filled with busybodies who have nothing better to do with their days than
spy on one another, until two new arrivals provide fresh grist for the mill. What inspired Vivianne Rocher to move to
Lansquenet with her daughter Anouk and to open a chocolate boutique is never explained, but her effect on the populace
is profound and immediate: the grim little town and its sniping inhabitants are transformed through the magic of Viviannes
confections into an almost surreal assembly of sensualists, each somehow discovering in bonbons the key to happiness.
Elderly crones find themselves remembering long- forgotten loves; shy young couples work up the nerve to break the ice.
Is this all the result of only chocolate? Or is some more sinister force at work? The local priest suspects the worst, and his
suspicions are reinforced by his awareness that Vivianne opened her shop on Shrove Tuesdayand thus has been tempting
the entire parish from its Lenten austerities for the past six weeks. Now, she has even announced plans for a Chocolate
Festival to take place on Easter Sunday itself! Horrified, he hatches a plan to foil her festivities, but God does not always
side with the just. Who will win the soul of the town? Premise, prose, and pace all march along capably, but they fail nevertheless
to raise the whole above the debilities of heavy symbolism and excruciatingly precious plot." Kirkus Reviews
"Delectable . . . delicious" USA Today
"Harris writes with verve and charm . . . if Colette and Hawthorne had collaborated, the result might have been this serious delight."
The New Yorker
"Part fairy tale, part morality tale, laden with high farce and tongue-in-cheek humor . . . suffused with lush detail and finely
drawn interesting characters." Philadelphia Inquirer
"Harris offers descriptions of chocolate real enough to melt in the mouths of chocoholics, francophiles, armchair gourmets,
cookbook readers, and lovers of passion everywhere." Ingram
> "I never met a chocolate I didn't like."
> Deanna Troi, Star Trek Next Generation
ENTIRELY AGREE!! It seems to be my philosophy of life :)
> "Harris offers descriptions of chocolate real enough to melt in the mouths
> of chocoholics, francophiles, armchair gourmets, cookbook readers, and
> lovers of passion everywhere." Ingram
I simply cannot wait to read this book!
I think the term "cloying" really misses the mark. This story is presented
in such a novel way that it might make some people uncomfortable if they're
used to a drier style. No, it's not just the chocolate, wonderful though it
is. There is obvious surface symbolism, but don't dismiss it, because there
is a deeper resonance. Individuals and whole societies are gripped with a
superstitious feeling that denying themselves pleasure is somehow helpful or
holy or healthy, to the extent that we don't let ourselves experience life
vividly, and make it difficult for others to do so. These people were
trapped, bound up in the conventional wisdom of their society, but aren't we
all, in different ways, also trapped? There are so many people who "get" the
idea but fail to liberate themselves because they don't see themselves
clearly. The more stories like this one I read, the more I can see these
limitations that we put on ourselves and each other.
Another side drama that I found really touching was how Vianne finally grew
out of repeating with her own daughter (whom she loved very much) the
discounting of her wishes and needs that her mother had done to her. She
stopped moving compulsively from place to place, dragging her daughter
around with her like some sort of security blanket. Realizing what harm has
been done to you, and consciously deciding not to repeat that with your own
child is often a difficult thing, but a very important step to take.
"Cloying"? Come on! Let the story work its magic on you!
Did you like the format of the book? The diary, the alternating points of view? Did this help you get to know
Reynaud better? Were you more sympathetic to his character?
"Carob is a brown powder made from pulverized fruit of a Mediterranean evergreen. Some consider Carob an
adequate substitute for chocolate because it has some similar nutrients (calcium, phosphorus), and because it can,
when combined with vegetable fat and sugar, be made to approximate the color and consistency of chocolate.
Of course, the same arguments can as persuasively be made in favor of dirt." Sandra Boynton, author of _Chocolate: the Consuming Passion_
Sarah - who accepts no substitutes for chocolate!
This story pits religious abstinence against indulgence, living for
tomorrow (an afterlife or heaven) against living for today. Chocolate
seems the perfect representative of the indulgent life. Think about our
associations with chocolate. Would the same story have worked with
something other than chocolate: wine, rice, meat?
Vianne tells us about chocolate's origin in the hot sensual rainforests of
the Americas and about its role in sacred rituals of the Aztecs. She
wonders "Perhaps this is what Reynaud senses in my little shop: a throwback
to the times when the world was a wider wilder place. Before Christ -
before Adonis was born...-the cocoa bean was revered." What is Harris
saying here?
"Oh, divine chocolate!
They grind thee kneeling,
Beat thee with hands praying,
And drink thee with eyes to heaven."
Marco Antonio Orellana, 18th century
"Chocolate is a divine, celestial drink, the sweat of the stars, the vital
seed, divine nectar, the drink of the gods, panacea and universal
medicine." Geronimo Piperni, quoted by Antonio Lavedan, surgeon in the
Spanish army, 1796
Sarah
PS: There is a neat exhibit on chocolate at The Field Museum:
www.fmnh.org/Chocolate/exhibits.html
Here's their description of the exhibit:
From rainforest treasure to luscious treat-immerse yourself in the story
of chocolate.
A gift for the gods. A symbol of wealth and luxury. An economic livelihood.
Bonbons. Hot fudge. Candy bars. For thousands of years humans have been
fascinated with the delicious phenomenon that we call “chocolate.”
Journey through history to get the complete story behind the tasty treat
that we crave in Chocolate, an exciting new exhibition developed by The
Field Museum.
You’ll begin in the rainforest with the unique cacao tree whose seeds
started it all. Visit the ancient Maya civilization of Central America and
discover what chocolate meant nearly 1,500 years ago. Then travel forward
in time and northward to the Aztec civilization of 16th-century Mexico,
where cacao seeds were so valuable they were used as money. Discover
chocolate’s introduction into the upper classes of European society and its
transformation into a mass-produced world commodity.
I'm not understanding the "superstitious" part of denying themselves.
Certainly one could argue "healthy" when deciding to not overeat chocolate? So
far (half way through the book), I'm not reading the purpose behind Lenten
abstence. Does the author address that point later? Or are all Lenten
practices/all religious practices to be avoided less we miss "experience[ing]
life vividly"?
I failed to see any deep symbolism attached to the idea of denying oneself
something in order to better experience life. The only way that I can connect
this with my own life is to say that on occasion I might do something that is
radically different from what I would ordinarily do and it might give me a
temporary sense of pleasurable wickedness. I think the pleasure is because I
do not do it very often. In the book the over indulgence of sweets was so
common that it lost all sense of pleasure.
I enjoyed the sense of sweet satisfaction that Vianne gained from a few
material possessions such as mismatched silverware and glassware. To me this
symbolized a need for permanence somewhere. The end of the book did not bear
this out because she was once more planning to move on.
Perhaps the real symbolism or message of this book is one of the conflict of
tolerance and intolerance. The Priest being the prime example of intolerance
while Vianne was a beautiful example of tolerance.
> Perhaps the real symbolism or message of this book is one of the conflict of
> tolerance and intolerance. The Priest being the prime example of intolerance
> while Vianne was a beautiful example of tolerance.
I agree.
And it could have been any gender, occupation or age to represent "intolerance"
and "tolerance". Yet, it is interesting that she chose religion. I can name
several examples of both the priest and Vianne. more of the former than latter,
probably.
Is overeating chocolate pleasurable to you? It certainly isn't to me. One or
two pieces of really good dark chocolate with a cup of tea feels
pleasurable. I like to eat healthy because it feels right and because I care
about my body. In fact, I feel it is a holy vessel for my soul! I don't
think of this as abstainance or as denying myself, but as a positive and
loving choice. Eating chocolate in small quantities is also a positive and
loving choice. As for Lenten season, we each make our own personal choices
for how to make the time holy. That might include extra prayer, deeds of
loving kindness to others, or any of a number of things. Declaring chocolate
to be off limits to all of his parishoners is not a holy act, nor does it
lead the people to being any more holy. I like what the rabbi said about
being called (when we meet our maker) to account for all of God's gifts that
we refused. I used the word "superstition" to describe the subconscious idea
that if we deprive ourselves and avoid pleasure that we will "buy" our way
into heaven, which is in direct contradiction to the idea of salvation by
grace alone, but is nevertheless a widespread theme in the minds of
Christians everywhere.
So, in response to your question, I am in favor of religious practices,
individually chosen, which have the effect of making a person feel closer to
God. I do not believe saying "no" to pleasure has that effect, nor does
dictating to other people that they, too should avoid pleasure "for God's
sake."
Margy
What a cast of characters! From their first face to face encounter, the very "direct" Vianne and the "guarded, aloof"
and judgmental Francis Reynaud were set for conflict. And they didn't disappoint! Near the ending of the book,
Vianne understands that her very existence enrages him.
The good versus evil theme was of course apparent. But I felt Vianne's brief stay in this town did more for her than
anyone else. As the book ended she felt she was actually going to be able to choose if she would stay longer or
would move on. Not just be swept by the wind but actually choose.
Poor Reynaud with his childhood memories and experiences. Too bad he chose to become a priest as that position
let him touch so many lives with his own warped view on LIFE. And how sad that the old priest could still reach out
(from his coma) and add further grief to Reynaud's life by "twitching" - Reynaud was so quick to accept that as a "sign".
I loved this book and keep thinking of Armande, Luc, Josephine, Anouk, Narrcisse, Guillaume and Roux. I also liked
the diary form used - it helped me get to know the characters in depth. I am not a great chocolate lover but enough so
that I can see why the story would not have worked with the use of "wine, rice or meat" instead of the chocolate symbo!.
I do not understand why the author chose this ending with the priest rolling
comatose in the chocolates. I felt his rage while walking over to the
chocolate shop - so what happened to it? It did not seem realistic to me to
have the priest eat/roll instead of cause damage.
I had absolutely no sympathy for Reynaud. I believe that he was deeply disturbed psychologically (paranoid schizophrenia?) ,
bigoted, and a religious fanatic. Those, like him, who use God and religion as an excuse to try to impose their narrow beliefs
on people cause more harm than good - and frequently drive people away from the church.
Reynaud:
"I know my duty. I sleep very little now, having extended my penance to include these stray moments of abandon.
My joints ache, but I welcome the distraction. Physical pleasure is the crack into which the devil sends his roots. I avoid
sweet scents. I eat a single meal a day, and then only the plainest and most flavorsess of foods. When I am not going
about my duties in the parish, I work in the churchyard, digging the beds and weeding around the graves....for as I dig
and prune and cut, the serried green armies simply fill the spaces at my back, pushing out long green tongues of derision
at my efforts."
"The Rocher woman... She is the influence, pere, the parasite that has invaded our garden. I should have listened to my instincts.
Uprooted her the moment I set eyes on her-she who has balked me at every turn, laughing at me behind her shielded window,
sending out corrupting suckers in every direction. ..Evil lives with us. Evil wears a winning smile and bright colors. She has to
be routed. Her brat too. In any way we can manage. Too late for niceties, pere. My soul is already compromised...."
"Passing by Les Marauds before mass today I saw, moored at the side of the Tannes, a houseboat of the type you and I both
know well....Every year they try it, coming upriver from the cities and the shantytowns or worse, farther afield, from Algeria
and Morocco. Looking for work. Looking for a place to settle, to breed...They are vagrants. They have no respect and no
values. They are the river gypsies, spreaders of disease, thieves, liars, murderers when they can get away with it..."
Does Harris demonize the Catholic church in her writings?
In an interview, she was asked:
"Chocolat mentions the sins of the Catholic Church, for which the pope has recently apologised....Why is the church so
demonised in your work? Are you merely obeying Gothic conventions, where Catholicism equals sin, or do you have a
deeper critique of the church?"
Her answer:
"I have nothing against the Catholic church or any other. What I find offensive is intolerance of other beliefs. I also find it
difficult to accept any belief system based on self-hatred and self-blame, the demonizing of pleasure, or the persecution
of people of other faiths. However I don't think that in any of my books I am making a point against the Church itself.
Instead I am criticizing particular individuals who use the church as an excuse to pursue their own agenda of cruelty or dominance.
A religion is only made up of the people who follow it, and like anything else, it can be a tool for good or for evil.
Catholicism has been both, in spades, throughout history, as have many other "cursading" religions. I'm not a crusader.
I don't discuss my own religion, nor would I want to persuade anyone else to follow it. I think people should find their
own way, and let others do the same"
I think this is reflected in Chocolat. What do you think?
Sarah
At 09:37 AM 1/27/2003 -0500, you wrote:
But I felt Vianne's brief stay in this town did more for her than anyone else. As the book ended she felt she was
actually going to be able to choose if she would stay longer or would move on. Not just be swept by the wind but actually choose.
I have to admit that I did not like the ending I am a true romantic at heart. Vianne is going to have Roux's child.
Roux is with Josephine. Vianne is still unsure if she will stay or move on - dragging her children, once more, around the
world - when both she and Anouk wish to find some permanance in their lives.
Why did Harris leave the ending so uncertain?
Thank you all who joined in our discussion of Chocolat. It is time to post final comments and discussion for Chocolat.
Also, please take a few moments and rate this book 1(lowest) to five(highest). The title for February is
"Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress."
Some of my final thoughts and questions about "Chocolat" are listed below. I have to admit that there is a lot I still have
questions about and don't understand.
Were you surprised at the revelation near the end that Vianne was a "found" child? That her "mother" had in fact abducted her?
Why do you think Josephine stole things? Was it necessary to the book or her character?
Did you like how Harris dealt with, Guillame's dog's death and with Armande's suicide? Did she have an agenda or
message about death that you felt she was trying to convey? After Charly's death, Armande states, "Sometimes survival
is the worst alternative there is." And later, when talking with Vianne, "After a five-course banquet, you'd want coffee
and liqueurs, wouldn't you? You wouldn't suddenly decide to round it all off with a bowl of pap, would you? Just so you
could have an extra course?...You need to know when to stop, Vianne. You need to know when to push away your plate
and call for those liqueurs....You were the one, weren't you, who told Guillaume to leave Charly some dignity."
["You're not a dog!" Vianne retorted, angry now.] "No," replied Armande softly, "and I have a choice."
I like how Vianne was honest with Anouk when she asked, "You won't die, will you?" Vianne's response was,
"No one can promise that," and she went on to explain where she hoped/liked to think where Charly was after his death.
She avoided the "comforting lies."
Harris never states in what year this story takes place. At first, I thought maybe the 40's, but references to pop culture
later in the book made me realize that it was pretty contemporary. Did any of you note the references to "Florida? Disneyland?
..Frodo's journey into Mordor...Dorothy and Toto"? Did you feet that it took place in the past or that it was more contemporary?
I admit is didn't understand the significance of Pantoufle. What do you think? The creativity and magic that we grow out of?
Both Armande and Vianne were able to catch fleeting images of Pantoufle - but not like Anouk.
I hope you enjoyed this month's discussion.
Sarah - who loves chocolate quotes :-)
"If you get melted chocolate all over your hands, you're eating it too slowly."
"Diet tip: Eat a chocolate bar before each meal. It'll take the edge off your appetite and you'll eat less."
"A nice box of chocolates provides your total daily intake of calories in one place. Isn't that handy?"
"If calories are an issue, store your chocolate on top of the fridge. Calories are afraid of heights and they will jump out of the
chocolate to protect themselves."
source: www.shesgotchocolate.com/quotes.html
I forgot to send this list with my last message - hope you enjoy!
Other novels with food as a main ingredient:
Esquivel, Laura. Like Water for Chocolate.
Harris, Joanne. Five Quarters of the Orange.
Hendricks, Judith Ryan. Bread Alone.
Letts, Billie. The Honk and Holler Opening Soon.
Stolz, Karen. World of Pies.
For those of you that enjoy non-fiction, try:
Bourdain, Anthony. Kitchen Confidential: Adventures in the Culinary Underbelly.
McMakin, Tom. Bread and Butter: What a Bunch of Bakers Taught Me About Business and Happiness .
*****McMakin's book features the opening of Lafayette's own Great Harvest Bread Company*****
Reichl, Ruth. Tender at the Bone: Growing Up at the Table (1998) and
Comfort Me With Apples: More Adventures at the Table.
Schlosser, Eric. Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal.
Sheraton, Mime. The Bialy Eaters: the Story of a Bread and a Lost World.
Sarah
I reply to your question about the priest wallowing in the chocolates, I
think it does make some sense.
Sure, he intended to wreck the display in a fit of "righteous" rage. But
would that act be logical? To me, either action is crazy. I think that , at
the peak of his rage, he broke. The emotionally healthy part of him that he
had kept in chains for so long and, in fact, tortured, broke out and went
into an eating frenzy fired by all the torment it had endured over the
years. After all, the priest deliberately "mortified his flesh" which
includes the part of him that wishes to have fun and enjoy life. It seems
natural to me that anyone breaking out of a prison like that would behave in
a, shall we say, intemperate way.
I give it a 5. I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the comments. For myself,
the characters in any work of fiction
speak to me through my own life experiences. It is always interesting to me
to read various intellectual analyzations
of a work of fiction - what message the author may or may not be sending
through the story line and each character.
But what will stay with me is how the story and characters touch me personally.
So I still pity the character of Reynaud
even tho he was despicable. What an sad and wasted (fictional!) life. At the
end Vianna is unsure of what she will do
but, to me, that is what comes when one finally understands that there really
are choices in life. And it isn't always just
where the wind takes you. This was a very interesting read.
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Welcome to the February Book Clique discussion of "Balzac and the Little
Chinese Seamstress" by Dai Sijie.
"Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress is an enchanting tale that
captures the magic of reading and the wonder of romantic awakening. An
immediate international bestseller, it tells the story of two hapless city
boys exiled to a remote mountain village for re-education during China's
infamous Cultural Revolution. There the two friends meet the daughter of
the local tailor and discover a hidden stash of Western classics in chinese
translation. As they flirt with the seamstress and secretly devour these
banned works, the two friends find transit from their grim surroundings to
worlds they never imagined." From: Reading Group Choices
The author, Dai Sijie, was born in China in 1954. He is a filmmaker who
was re-educated during the Cultural Revolution. In 1984 he left China for
France, where he has lived since. Before writing Balzac.. he directed
three major films: China, My Sorrow (1989), Le Mangeur de lune (1994), and
The Eleventh Child (1999).
Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress is his first novel and was an
overnight sensation when it was published in France in 2000. The novel has
won numerous awards, including the Dublin Literary Award and the
International Book Award. It was also one of Library Journal's Best Books
of 2001.
Dai Sijie recently completed the film adaptation of this novel, which
debuted in the US at the Chicago Film Festival in October 2002 - and
nominated for a Golden Globe in 2003 for Best International Film.
Reviews from the back cover:
“An unexpected miraclea delicate, and often hilarious, tale.” -Los Angeles
Times Book Review
“A funny, touching, sly and altogether delightful novel . . . about the
power of art to enlarge our imaginations.” -The Washington Post Book World
“Poetic and affecting. . . . The descriptions of life in this strangest of
times and places are so riveting that the reader longs for more.” -The New
York Times Book Review
“[A] thrilling and . . . truly great work. . . . [A] richly complex fable.”
-San Francisco Chronicle Book Review
“Gives the rest of the world a glimpse into that dark place where the human
spirit continues, against all odds, to shine its light.” -The Boston Globe
“A wonderful novel . . . formed by detailed layering and exquisite
craftsmanship, like a beautifully tailored garment.” -The Chicago Tribune
“Poignant, humorous, and romantic.” -The New York Times
“Seduces readers into its world. . . . [A] very wise little story of love
and illusion.” -The Philadelphia Inquirer
But what do YOU think? Let us know!
Sarah
I'm having trouble with the lice! I know I should focus on the determination
of the lads. Yet, I feel the movement of the lice. Great writing!
Most critics are enchanted by this novel (it is often described as "quaint," and "amusing"), but
some question whether the serious subject of political repression should be turned into a
"picturesque romp." Do you feel the tone is appropriate?
How realistic do you think Luo and the narrator's experience is? Their time on Phoenix Mountain
is not pure horror, despite its unpleasant aspects. The two friends get into lots of trouble and have
lots of fun - and they seem to have a bit of freedom. I have not done a lot of research on the
Chinese Cultural Revolution or Chairman Mao - Do you think this novel accurately portrays the realities of re-education?
Sarah
I loved this book! It gave the impression of "imprisonment" without the gory
details. It gave hope that people can find positives within the negative
experience. I felt the implied terror without the author writing great
details. I was amused at the "freedoms" granted for selfish reasons. So much
for governmental rules and attitudes.
Great idea to suggest this book! Thank you.
Wasn't the author himself re-educated in this manner. If he can see humor and
freedom in the situation, I think that it is there in some form. He is some
one who sees a glass at half full not half empty. He has his characters making
the best of a terrible situation and perservering. Of course I have only
gotten a few chapters into the story so things could change.
Quoting Book Clique :
What a beautifully packaged book! A very short and light read - but plenty to think about. It has a
fairy/folk tale feel - a bit of a fable. Were any of you surprised at the ending? Or did you see it coming?
Sarah
I had a good chuckle at "Mozart is Thinking of Chairman Mao."
I attended the Music Man production Saturday evening. I chuckled so when I
heard "Balzac!" and thought of our little book. Heard it again on Sunday
television and laughed out loud.
I agree that this book is wonderful. I was surprised about the ending! I was
guessing several choices and that one was not on my list.
I loved the book. It is wonderfully Chinese until the ending. Our little
"Chinese Seamstress" turned very western in her sudden appreciation of her
beauty.
Hi Everyone:
Sorry about the bounced messages over the last few days. The problem was on our server end and should now be fixed.
Just a few last questions to tie up our discussion:
Luo is sent to the mountains to be reeducated, an experience he bitterly resents, and yet he himself
wishes to reeducate the Seamstress. From his very first encounter with the Seamstres he is both attracted
by her and discontented with her unsophisticated ways. Luo's means may be very different than
Chairman Mao's but his desire seems to be similar. He intends to change someone to match his vision
and ideals. What do you think the novel suggests about attempting to change others according to one's
own beliefs or desires? It certainly backfires on Luo.
Is the narrator right about the marginal status of the storyteller in the modern world? In the novel storytelling
is officially marginalized, but privately valued. In what ways is the novel an argument for the importance
of storytelling? What is Dai Sijie trying to say about the role of stories in any society?
What did you think of the novel's ending? What sort of statement do you feel this ending makes about
literature, or perhaps about the perils of "re-education"?
Also, please let everyone know how you rate this book: 1 (hated it) to 5 (best book I ever read).
The March BookClique title for discussion is "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood.
Thank you for contributing to this month's discussion!
Sarah
I would give it a 4. It is not a book I would have picked out on my own and I would have missed out on a good read.
HI,
I didn't get the book until last week. It was a good read and I would give it a 4. My friend had it, a gift for
Christmas, and she recommended it. I told her to get on line and answer questions. I was a little late in
reading it to do that, yet after reading the book, I did agree with the fact that the ending was not what I expected.
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Handmaid's Tale
Welcome everyone! This month's discussion topic is Margaret Atwood's '''The Handmaid's Tale."
First published in 1986, the fictional setting of Gilead is, as Atwood herself describes it, a dystopia
(think dysfunctional utopia), placing the novel in the genre of such classics as George Orwell's "1984"
and Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World." As with all dystopias, Gilead has a peaceful exterior--women
are "protected" from such things as prostitution and pornography and no longer have to starve themselves
or have surgery to obtain the perfect body, but at what cost? Read and tell us what you think.
Perhaps some of you read this book when it first came out. It would be interesting to hear how your
perceptions of it may have changed. And anyone reading it may want to share whether you think the book
is as relevant today as it was in the mid-80's.
In addition to the obvious feminist issues raised in the novel, there are other social themes. In a note to the
reader at the end of the book, Atwood, who studied American Puritanism in graduate school at Harvard,
addresses the religious component, observing that the Puritans did not come to America for religious freedom
as is often thought but to establish a theocracy as is the repressive regime in Gilead. Atwood also expresses
her concern about the rising Islamic conservatism at the time, a trend continuing to affect us today. Economically,
Gilead is a cashless society with goods being distributed at centers in predetermined allotments, and part of the
series of events leading to its establishment was the government being able to electronically take control of its
citizens' assets.
Some questions to consider as you read: What trends did Atwood see in society that lead her to envision the
extremes found in Gilead? Are there any positive sides to this civilization?
Waiting to read your thoughts, Linda
I liked the character of Moira, Offread's college friend, because of her willingness to rebel from the
repressive society--first meeting Offred in the bathroom and finally trussing up an Aunt and escaping
from the living quarters. But her portrayal is also somewhat troubling because it seems to both critique
Moira's liberal views while extolling her quest for freedom. As a college student, she belongs to a women's
collective and writes papers on issues such as date rape and sexual objectification. In what I see as
something of a contradiction, in Gilead society women are in deed "safe" from the dangers feminists have
criticized in society--they are taken care of as far as food, shelter and clothing and the penalty for rape is a
gruesome death. Also, their clothing is all the same and hides their bodies. What is Atwood's point? In what
to me is a clearer vision finally, Moira winds up in what appears to be a state run bordello which she has
chosen over the Colonies where women labor at "cleaning up" everything from bodies after a battle or
toxic spills. She tells Offred its better where she is because "the food's not bad and there's drink and
drugs." (p249 in my edition) Offred responds that "she is frightening me now, because what I hear in her
voice is indifference, a lack of volition." So what do you make of this character? Is her quest for
independence shown in a positive or negative light?
Quoting Book Clique :
> Welcome everyone! This month's discussion topic is Margaret Atwood's
> '''The Handmaid's Tale."
placing the novel in the genre of such classics as George Orwell's
>
> "1984" and Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World." As with all dystopias, Gilead
>
> has a peaceful exterior--women are "protected" from such things as
> prostitution and pornography and no longer have to starve themselves or
> have surgery to obtain the perfect body, but at what cost?
Interesting that the women are "protected" from such things yet our main
character is now a prostitute. How thoughtful of the government to provide for
their male leaders.
I do love this book. It causes me to have great debates with myself. I just
started reading the book and am not far into it. I can't wait to learn more.
It seems aggravating to have to "flash backs" and, yet, without it, I would be
so lost. Great choice! Thanks for suggesting it.
Interesting that the women are "protected" from such things yet
our main character is now a prostitute. How thoughtful of the
government to provide for their male leaders.
It is not that Offred is a prostitute she serves as more of a surrogate
mother, thus, the biblical quote at the beginning of the text referring to
Rachel and her handmaid Bilal who bore her children. Now there are women,
like Moira, who are prostitutes but that is because they are either
infertile or unruly (like Moira) and they have "choice" (as if the
alternative life/death really offers them any real "choice"). For me, that
distinction between Handmaid and "party girl" adds a whole new dynamic to
the novel.
It's that time again. Please send in your rating of "The Handmaid's Tale". Rate it from 1 to 5, 5 being
the highest. You can check out the ratings of previous selections here:
The selection for April is "Nanny Diaries" by Emma McLaughlin.
The Handmaid's Tale continues to be one of my favorite books and gets a rating of 5.
4
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Hello Everyone:
The April Book Clique title to discuss is:
"The Nanny Diaries" by Emma McLaughlin and Nicola Kraus
"Two real-life nannies paint a wickedly funny portrait of their pampered
charges
-- and the kids' even more spoiled and demanding parents."
So...get some iced tea, pull up a lawn chair, start reading, and enjoy the
beautiful weather we are having.
Sarah
I thought that this book was pretty annoying. Nanny was a push-over and Mrs. and Mr. X had many, many
problems they needed to work out. I got very tired of reading how Nanny allowed herself to be taken advantage
of. And, Mrs. X had such low self-esteem, it was depressing. She really was willing to do anything to keep
Mr. X in her life. As they say: Those who marry for money, earn every cent.
I didn't like this book, at all. The only redeeming quality it had, IMO, was Nanny's grandmother. Too bad
she wasn't in more of the book!
The promise of Life is fulfilled,
Spring has returned,
and we are renewed.
What I initiate now
Grows quickly,
And balance is easy.
So mote it be.
I thought while it did get a bit trying, It really illustrated that money
can't make you happy. And it really highlighted the fact that service
people are really dumped on and a lot of the people we look to, to serve us
our food, take care of our children and clean our houses, are real people
and they may (or just may feel) like they have no options and have to take
the crap these people hand out.
The book wasn't one I would have picked out myself, but it did have some
entertaining value, I enjoyed parts of it.
-gina
In response to the comments about the characters being annoying--I think that was the point of the book.
The authors are critiquing through satire the spiritual poverty of the wealthy people, who they worked for
in real life over the span of many years, who basically ignore their children despite giving them gross
material advantages and depend on others to raise them. Linda
Although this book did start out quite funny, the characters became particularly irritating and unrealistic.
Surely no one would take the amount of abuse that Nanny, an educated, experienced nanny, took from
Mrs X? I realise that the characters are meant to be a critique of the authors' former employers but it was
a shame that they didn't maintain a humorous element throughout the text.
I read the book this weekend. I thought it was well written.
I was wondering what you all thought would become of Nanny in the future. Do you see her marrying
H.H. and becoming a type A mother? A type A mother was someone who worked full time and had
a nanny a couple of hours a week so she could have some "me time". I gathered from the book that a
lot of type A moms would become type B or even Cs in the future. What do you think? Will she become
so jaded with working all day with other people's children that she will not want to be with her own.
When she left the X's she was going to be the program associate of a children's organization in Brooklyn.
Do you think that doing all the work (conniving) and stressing out Mrs. X does to keep Mr. X is worth it?
She isn't happy and neither is he. Is there hope for their relationship?
Do you think either of the X's listened to the tape Nanny left? If so did it change anything?
This book was depressing to me - the first half or so. I taught many children
as mentioned in the book. They were not this wealthy, but had enough money to
spend and ignore the children. I try to understand how parents can work so hard
to ignore (spatula) their children. Fancy namebrands on all except who is hired
to train their child. Many in the lower financial strata simply neglect by
abandoning the children rather than hire a nanny. To watch/read those souls as
they are crushed is hard.
The last part of the book reminded me of Bridget Jones' Diary. Forgive me if I
have the title incorrect. She seemed to loose her brain. Her family seemed
grounded in common sense. Now,I can understand staying to care for the
neglected child, but goodness! No words come forth from Nanny's mouth?
Babysitting 12 children unexpectedly at the summer retreat with no warning nor
"tools" to entertain?? Her college education ought to have helped her in
speaking skills, motivation skills, etc. Worked on the child, why not give it a
whirl on Mommy Dearest?
I agree with Nanny's decision about the tape at the end. Why explain to the
parents? They will be angry enough (with her returning to the apartment) to not
hear the simple message she left. They have such a differnet perspective
towards the child...now children? Like we would believe Mrs.X.
The neglect of children is too common in our daily lives. It isn't only the
super rich. We all have a story or twenty to share that we see daily. Neglect
is one of many reasons we have road rage, people shoving in line, etc. Children
deserve better...and so do the rest of us.
I don't see her marrying H.H. unless he initiates it. She doesn't stand up
for herself enough. I don't think her nanny experiences would keep her from
having her own children. Actually, I would think they'd help her to be a
wonderful mother herself. But, since she's a bit of a push-over, the father
of her kids would have to be the strong type.
Of course all that work Mrs. X puts into her relationship is not worth it.
Neither of them is happy. Their children won't be happy. Her mother-in-law
isn't happy. It's a lose-lose situation. And, he'll keep cheating on her
and probably leave her in the end, anyway.
In order for people to change, they have to want to change. So, unless the
X's had some epiphany before watching the tape Nanny left, it won't make a
difference. These people made a choice every day to basically ignore their
child and do whatever it was they wanted to do for themselves. I doubt that
will change just because Nanny gave them something to think about.
I think the ending may have been the most depressing part of the book. It
leaves you feeling hopeless.
Do you think they left the ending like that so they could write another book? The book has done so well
I am sure the publisher would jump at the chance. Should a second book follow Nanny or the X's?
I do agree that the end was a bit depressing. there really was no
resolution like you get in most books. no happy or sad ending, The family
is still a mess and you have no idea what is to become of them. the book
left me with more questions than answers.
Unless a book is a series, I tend to like things to be wrapped up by the =
end I hate having things hanging when I know there is no way I'll find out
what happens.
-gina
Interesting thought - a second book, or third. I would like to see it follow
the disfunctional family with great nannies who counter balance the neglect.
This might show families a positive model for parenting.
I don't think a sequel would hold much promise. I think it's possible, but I can't imagine it being a book
I would read. I am not interested to see if Mr. and Mrs. X evolve. I think a sequel would be better if
everyone stayed in character, and I just didn't find any of the characters compelling enough to follow
them through another book.
But, I agree that the ending left it a possibility.
An article in my Sunday paper magazine begins: " First, The Nanny Diaries exposed bad mommies.
Now the just-out book, The Devil Wears Prada, sets its aim on bad, albeit stylish bosses". At least,
I knew what both sentences were referring to!! Although I found the writing good enough to keep me
reading to the end, I can't say I really liked the book. Guess I just don't care enough about the issues
that were explored -except for the plight of Grover. Found the book a quick read but depressing. If the
two authors write a second book, I would give it a read as I do like their writing style - but I hope it
isn't a sequel to the Nanny Diaries.
So far everyone has been saying they do not like the characters in the book and they feel Nanny can not stand up for herself.
Nanny is only in her early to mid twenties. How many of us at that age could stand up to our employers
and say "No, you are wrong, wrong, wrong!" I don't think she has found the confidence in herself that
comes with age. I think it will come. I love her mom and Grandma. These are two strong women who
are wonderful characters. Nanny has them as role models and they are no push overs. I belive that one
day Nanny will be more like they are. I think Nanny really wants to make a difference in children's lives and she will.
What are your opinions of Grandma and Nanny's mom?
I thought her mom and grandmother (in particular) were wonderful.
Personally, I was not this complacent in my early twenties (and I'm just in
my late twenties, now!). Over time, might she develop some backbone?
Possibly, as she has pretty good role models in her mother and grandmother.
But, she'll need to begin practicing first! :)
The promise of Life is fulfilled, Spring has returned, and we are renewed.
What I initiate now Grows quickly, And balance is easy. So mote it be.
I read the book quite a while ago, so unfortunately I don't remember much
about Nanny's mom or grandma. But I definitely agree with the comment about
our wisdom and confidence level when we are in our early twenties. Chances
are that some of the wisdom or awareness of what was really going on didn't
hit Nanny until she's writing about the experiences later.
I remember all too well being in situations at that age that I didn't know
how to handle, yet when I look back it seems so simple now.
I really enjoyed the book.
I don't think it's just confidence. It may very well be the fear of losi=
ng her job.
I was quite the opposite. I was very out spoken and full of gusto in my
early twenties. My co-workers would love our company meetings because I
always said the things they all complained about in the break room but
wouldn't say themselves. I was young and felt this was just a job and I
could always get another one. Now that I'm older and have a family, I take
a lot more grief from my job and don't say anything. I feel now that I
have more on the line then just my job.
-gina
Nanny gives Grayer unconditional love the kind a mother would give. Nanny is
always there for him when he needs someone.
Mary Poppins gives the Banks children tough love. She makes them clean up and
take medicine and is a bit aloof. She has unexpected (magical) surprises.
However she is gone as soon as the wind changes.
If you were a child with no parents around and no one to really care about you
and your emotional state, which nanny would you want to be with? Predictable
or unpredictable?
I know many feel that Nanny was a wimp. She did not stand up to the X's. I
think that she was more concerned about Grayer's care and well being. She knew
if she stood up to them they would fire her and what would that do to Grayer.
The previous nanny asked for time off and look where that got her. Nanny
chooses the lesser of two evils: get hurt herself or let Grayer get hurt. She
does her best, that is all any of us can do.
I see your point, but she got fired, anyway. I think to act and live out of
fear of what might happen is not ideal.
Personally, I'd rather have decent parents who take care of me instead of
hiring a complete stranger to do so. :)
The promise of Life is fulfilled, Spring has returned, and we are renewed.
What I initiate now Grows quickly, And balance is easy. So mote it be.
>
> Personally, I'd rather have decent parents who take care of me instead of
> hiring a complete stranger to do so. :)
Amen! However, reality says that many children grow with no active parenting.
Therefore, a "decent" provider or teacher or coach must take up the slack. I
vote for someone to care, even for a few months. And I might insert that child
care providers are seldom as compassionate as our education major/nanny.
I thought Mrs. X and the other wives were going overboard trying to keep their
nannies an dhusbands from interacting. The women did things like: not letting
the nannies call their husbands, be in the house alone together, wear stupid,
large Halloween costumes, etc.... I found out that husbands do have affairs
with their nannies, for examples Steven Seagal and Robin Williams. No wonder
Mrs. X was paranoid.
Miramax bought the film rights for this book. Would you go and see the film?
I thought the book was okay. I would not have read it as a personal choice if not for the book clique.
I think the ending could have been written better. It was rushed. I felt like some student wrote it and
when they realized they had reach the page/word quota they hurried it along to be done with it.
What does everyone else think of the ending?
> I thought the book was okay. I would not have read it as a personal choice
>
> if not for the book clique. I think the ending could have been written
> better. It was rushed. I felt like some student wrote it and when they
> realized they had reach the page/word quota they hurried it along to be
> done with it.
>
> What does everyone else think of the ending?
I agree. Didn't feel quite right for the rest of the book.
It is that time again. The end of the month is getting near, time to vote on Nanny Diaries. On a scale of
1 to 5 how did you like it? (One being poor and 5 being totally great read)
I will give it a 3. It was average.
The promise of Life is fulfilled, Spring has returned, and we are renewed.
What I initiate now Grows quickly, And balance is easy. So mote it be.
I give it a 3. Liked the writing style and would try another by the authors. I just didn't care for the storyline.
I would give it a 3 also. The book had some good points. I was entertained by some parts
but I wouldn't have a desire to read it again.
-gina
I would give it a 4 - I couldn't put it down. Too bad the ending wasn't as
interesting as the rest!
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Hi everyone:
The Bookclique selection for May is "Stupid White Men... and Other Sorry
Excuses for the State of the Nation" by Michael Moore.
Moore is one of the most polarizing celebrities alive. Faster than you can say
"Oscar speech", people will give their unabashed opinions of him and his work.
Moore has been called a "liberal Rush Limbaugh", a "bleeding-heart blowhard", a
hypocrite and many variations thereof. On the other hand, "Stupid White Men"
has been at the top of the New York Times bestseller list for nine months now
and was named "Book of the Year" at the British Book Awards.
What is it about Moore, particularly "Stupid White Men", that hits a nerve
(good or bad)? Whether or not you agree with his views, is his activism good/
effective/ eye-opening/ necessary?
Admittedly, I haven't read the book, but I just wanted to chime in with my $.02
about my recent endeavor to learn more about this Michael Moore character...
I was not very familiar with much of anything about the man, but I found myself
intrigued with all the flack and commotion he seemed to be causing, and I
didn't understand just what it was all about. I remembered hearing a sound byte
or some short clip or quote that got me curious about him and his work,
specifically his movie "Roger & Me." I didn't know at all what it the film was
about, but, seeing that the library had a copy, I put it on hold. As it turns
out, "Roger & Me," for those of you who are not familiar, is basically a
documentary (in what I can only assume is classic Michael Moore style--strong
on the bias and opinionation) about the city of Flint, Michigan during and
after GM pulled its production out, the ensuing economic problems, and his
quest to speak with GM's head honcho (? I think), Roger ____ (shame on me, I
forget his name; I was watching it for "pleasure" so I didn't take notes! ;)
I found "Roger & Me" to be a strange, yet intriguing piece, and while I liked
his compassion (is that the right word?) for his hometown and the way he let
things be said without saying them (the camera work, in places, is
really "right on" especially as it contrasts with some of the voice-overs in
portraying the bitter irony of the situation), I found myself disagreeing
heartily with his tactics in his quest to accomplish his goals (indeed, I'm not
sure I even agree with what he was trying to accomplish). For instance, he goes
repeatedly to GM headquarters in Detroit in an effort to speak with the
aforementioned Roger _____. Aside from the fact that Moore is pushy,
manipulative, and has no appointment to see "Roger", he barges in with a camera
crew in tow--just the thing to make security guards and executives edgy from
the get-go. He is also seriously underdressed (i.e. he always looks like a slob-
-what's up with that hat?!) and has no business cards to give to a GM executive
who asks him for one. He digs through his wallet and even tries to pass along
his video rental card or a discount card to a chicken restaurant which bears
his name. Said executive is not impressed. While refusing to "fall in line"
with the expected standards of professional American white-collar-ism may
simply be one of Mr. Moore's intents, instead of looking like an activist, he
comes off looking, instead, like an agitator. I'm not sure he'd do any cause
much good, rather, his presence and endorsement would more than likely hurt the
credibility of any worthwhile issue.
With that said, I'm not even sure I'm going to waste my time reading the book
I find your opinions on Moore's "Roger & Me" and the man, himself,
interesting. I think I've seen that film, but not in a long time. I think
Moores' tactics are mainly shock value, but he shares a lot of truths. I
like his style, personally. I find that so many people are caught up in how
things look and are "supposed to be" that they waste opportunities to really
see what's going on in this country and do something about things.
I have begun reading the book and am a bit sore I didn't read it when it
first came out. I am learning more things about how Bush stole the
presidential election and the tidbit about the new VW Beetle is priceless.
I am thoroughly enjoying this book. But, then, I've always been a fan of
his satirical style.
I was not very familiar with much of anything about the man, but I found
> myself
> intrigued with all the flack and commotion he seemed to be causing, and I
> didn't understand just what it was all about.
... As it turns
>
> out, "Roger & Me,"
AH! That person. Now I also remember him at the ?Academy Awards? recently and
giving a brief, yet heartfelt, negative commentary on the current war and
President.
ah
now I, too, am hesitant to read it. Yet, I shall begin since it is a part of
the book group. hmmm, does cause one to wonder...and worry.
I agree that Moore can be a bit of a self-righteous bully. I do however enjoy his satire. Is he biased?
sure, is he funny? absolutely!
For those who start to yell about how leftist Moore is, you should watch his most recent movie and the
one that won an academy award "Bowling for Columbine". At first glance it looks like it will be a tirade
against guns but we must remember Moore is from a small working-class midwestern town. He is a lifetime
member of the NRA. Doesn't really sound leftist does he? In Columbine, Moore finds more fault with our
militaristic-minded government than access to weapons (Canada has a higher gun to population ratio) or
violence in the media (most of the western world experiences the same movies, videogames, and music
as us but none come anywhere near our levels of homicide).
I don't think Moore intends anyone to take him completely seriously, but through humor he does expose
us to ideas we might not hear on the nightly news. Even if we don't agree with him, it is always a good
idea to listen to all sides.
For more serious writers outside of the political mainstream I would recommend Gore Vidal, Noam
Chomsky, or Howard Zinn.
Quoting Book Clique :
>
> I don't think Moore intends anyone to take him completely seriously, but
> through humor he does expose us to ideas we might not hear on the nightly
> news. Even if we don't agree with him, it is always a good idea to listen
> to all sides.
Humor is the key - it is missing many times.
It is hard to listen to both sides when Roger is so obnoxious.
> I have begun reading the book and am a bit sore I didn't read it when it
> first came out. I am learning more things ******
I will confess that I haven't read this book yet, but what inclines you to
believe his slant on things? How do you feel confident his views are accurate
rather than biased?
what inclines you to
> believe his slant on things? How do you feel confident his views are
accurate
> rather than biased?
Simply that I knew most of the stuff he's talking about already. He's
adding to what insights I already had. I believe the added insights, b/c I
would think that if they weren't true, some of the people he's talking about
would be suing him. He names names in the book. But, then again, those
people could expect that no one is taking Moore seriously. *shrug*
For those who don't know much about Moore, he has said that he uses his
"attack" reporting and "slobbish" appearance to represent the proverbial Common
Man, those he says he is asking the questions for. He uses these tactics to
show that John Doe could not walk in and get and audience with Roger (or any
other executive, for that matter) to find out why he has been laid off or why
insurance is being cut back, etc. Is that a believable explanation? Noble or
hypocritical?
While we're on the subject of hypocrisy, what do you think of Moore raging
against upper class white males who drive gas guzzlers and pollute, while he
admits to being and doing all of the above?
Hi everyone:
The following excerpt first appeared in an article in the Village Voice (August
2002).
*****
Skepticism and dissent have fueled the runaway sales of Michael Moore's Stupid
White Men. But according to Moore, his publisher, HarperCollins's ReganBooks,
saw these qualities as a liability after the WTC attacks. In the months
following September 11, the book's original release date, Moore claims the
publisher pressured him to revise Stupid White Men, threatening to pulp the
book if he did not change the section that refers to Bush as a "threat to our
national security" in a letter calling for his resignation. The book also calls
Bush's election a "coup," making him a "trespasser on federal land, a squatter
in the Oval Office." Moore said he was told by an executive, at a particularly
contentious meeting, "We're united-we-stand behind George W. Bush . . . and we
are asking you to tone down your dissent."
HarperCollins wouldn't comment on its discussions with Moore, but Lisa Herling,
director of corporate communications, explained the publisher's revision
request: "As with any political book, you want to make sure it hasn't become
outdated or need any adjustment based on the events of 9-11." At a time when
Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer was telling people to "watch what they say" such
adjustments seemed Ashcroftian. But after steadfastly refusing to alter the
content of Stupid White Men, Moore claims he was faced with the sole option of
censoring himself and then paying for the reprint costs. He dropped the
gloves-the book was finished.
Were it not for librarians, the story would have ended there, with a book by
one of America's most popular liberals essentially suppressed by the publishing
division of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. However, on December 1, Ann Sparanese,
an Englewood, New Jersey, librarian, heard Moore complain about Stupid White
Men's untimely end in a speech to the annual New Jersey Citizens Action
conference. Within days, librarian chat rooms and listservs were ablaze with
rumors of censorship, and, according to Moore, HarperCollins was deluged with
angry e-mails from librarians calling them censors and book-banners. Herling
said the publisher was "not aware of [HarperCollins] receiving a large number
of e-mails from librarians." Spectacularly, by December's end HarperCollins
agreed to release the book without change in February.
"If I seem to have this kinda weird optimism in the people of this country,"
Moore said, "it's because I know that they're the ones responsible for the
success of this book."
****
Obviously, the topic of self-censorship has reared its ugly head once more with
the "Once we're at war, you shut your mouth and go along with it" debate.
Should he have toned down the criticism, realized we were a nation facing
tragedy and been a "good" citizen? Or should he have updated his information,
as Mark Crispin Miller did with his "Bush Dyslexicon", adding more information
after the WTC disaster?
I would have liked to have had more updated information after 9-11. Perhaps
he'll do a new and improved version.
As for his speech at the Oscars, I don't see any reason why celebrites are
expected to be LESS vocal than the general public, as if they aren't allowed to
have opinions! Not only that, but for the most part they were more intelligent
anti-war protesters than the general public. It frustrated me that there didn't
appear to be INTELLIGENT, coherent arguments against the war. Too many
protests gave the appearance that anyone who supported peace was a
pothead or a moron. So Moore's speech at the Oscar's was at least a small step
forward. Censorship (even self-imposed) is a lie. I would rather see Moore
speak the truth (or at least his version of it) than to sell out and candy-coat
the problems our nation faces.
I have purchased the United Kingdom edition of Moore's book and I think it has different contents from the
United States version. There is a large section on how the Publishers' refused to release the book after 9-11
as well as an updated after thought on the 9-11 attacks. Moore actually links the Bin Laden and Bush family,
which is extremely interesting as well as being more than a little scary.
I was inclined to think that it was the wrong time, not the wrong message.
Oscar night had an entirely different focus than protesting the war. It seems
that attending a polical convention and making a speech about your latest
quilting project. Fine topic, just wrong time and place to discuss it.
Ideas and opinions are welcome. In my opinion, he was not appropriate in when
and where he spoke them.
Stupid White Men:
Watching the Oscars, I was embarrassed by Mr. Martins comments. I was
embarrassed for him at the right place right time his comments would have
been appropriate. This show was seen world over, foreign countries, and this
was the respect shown to the Elected President of the United States. Why
right does this gentleman have to believe he can express his views at that
particular time and place. If others in the audience, I mean Mr. and Mrs.
America had stood in front of that audience and told in blatant words the
disgust for the productivity presented to America by Mr. Martin. Mr. Martin
is good at his craft, how would he have felt about those cheering and
tolerating this form of Free Speech.
It is better to keep you mouth closed that to make yourself a spectacle in
front of the world
watching.
I keep hearing about this 'respect for the president' as if the president is some kind of idol held up above us. The
constitution is specifically designed so that our president is not a king but just one of us. Isn't that the idea? That
ordinary people will do their duty and serve their country as leaders? I didn't see a lot of respect for the office
of the president while Clinton was having his little scandal. It is not only our right, but our duty to speak up when
we do not agree with the government. When the politicians become removed from the public they are supposed
to serve, helping out the big donor companies, and not listening to the public, then the process breaks down. It is
the frustration with this breakdown that causes these spillovers of political speech in to not so political arenas. In
other words, we shouldn't criticize those that spoke up at the Oscars, but ask ourselves why they felt the need to
voice their opinions there. Could it be because the government has stopped listening?
Our government was designed with three equal branches that check each other's power. The check and balance
system seems to be eroding. Congress is split by petty squabbles and the president/cabinet writes the legislation
wielding veto power like a broadsword. Only the courts have tried to uphold the constitution, but weakened by
political appointments and vilified for their decisions, they are not the power they once were.
Growing voter apathy due to the breakdown and the lack of political choice has caused the lowest turnouts ever.
Bush was elected by less than 20% of the population. The largest corporations are the largest donors to both
Democrats and Republicans. The same company will donate money to each party just to cover all the bases.
I think we need to take the chance of making a spectacle of ourselves in front of the world if it means that we can
take a step toward saving our country.
Amen.
Moore attacks more than just the president, covering politics, the environment,
education and race. What portions hit a nerve with you? Was it because you
agreed with Moore so strongly that you wanted to call up your local congressman
and read it over the phone? Was it because you couldn't believe what he was
saying? Or was it because Moore himself infuriated you?
Michael Moore was gifted enough to prove the title of the book, STUPID, he
could not have said it better.
dsss
The environmental/recycling portion of the book was disheartening. I found
that disappointing, but I still enjoyed the book. I think my opinion of
Moore has become more solidified, since finishing the book. I no longer
look at him as "interesting". He seems to be a huge mess of hypocrisy and
prefers to complain, instead of being proactive. I don't like that, though
I'm glad he's loud with his complaints.
It's time for ratings again. I know there were some strong feelings about this book. Let us know what
you thought of it. Rate it from 1 to 5.
For June we change gears a bit for Jane Smiley's "Moo". "Moo" is a satirical look at life at a large
midwestern agricultural college.
Hmmm, sounds familiar doesn't it?
Can I give it a big fat zero?
Okay, 1, then.
I would give it a 3. It was enjoyable, but I could put it down and not pick
it up, again, with no problem.
I would give it 5 because even if I didn't agree with what he was saying it did make me think.
back to top
June is here and so is our next book clique selection. This month we are
reading Moo by Jane Smiley. Smiley won a pulitzer in 1991 for her novel A
Thousand Acres. Moo takes place at a midwestern university and which is in
Kansas. This novel is a satire, a kind of behind the scenes soap opera of the
goings on at Moo U. Jane Smiley Graduated with a MA from the University of
Iowa in 1975, MFA in 1976 and a PhD in 1978. She taught at Iowa State
University in Ames from 1981 to 1996. What could have happened there that she
would want to write such a satirical novel?
Enjoy
What do you think of Smiley's writing style? Does it grab you and draw you
into the story or is it a jumble?
Do you think this is an accurate representation of what goes on at a university?
What kind of parallels can be drawn between Moo and Purdue?
> What do you think of Smiley's writing style? Does it grab you and draw
you into the story or is it a jumble? I am just getting started on the book.
Only finished a couple of chapters so far. It took me a while to get used
to her run-on sentences. Not my favorite style, but it serves it's purpose.
>
> Do you think this is an accurate representation of what goes on at a
university? With a bit of exageration for effect, yes.
> What kind of parallels can be drawn between Moo and Purdue? First thing
that came to mind. Probably by the end of the first five pages. I think it
helps if we can see ourselves, laugh at our idiosyncrasies, and find a way
to love them anyway.
Rita
Do you think that being a "vehement agnostic" skews her view of religion?
What do you think of the views on marriage that are expressed in the book?
Smiley has been married three times. Is this book a bitter view of things that
have happened in her life, with embellishment of course.
Hi all! How goes the reading of Moo?
Which plot line is your favorite? Which group of characters/plot line could you do without?
What is the significance of Earl Butz?
The reading goes slow. Hard to keep all the characters straight. As for my favorite plot line, I like Chairman
X. It is fun to hear him get all worked up and wonder if he will stroke out. I could do without the four girls so
far they are not adding anything to the story.
Just cannot be based on PURDUE since they have red and yellow flowers! How
tacky.
The only woman in the book who seemed to feel like she had control of her life
was Mrs. Walker. Jane Smiley has her character as a lesbian. Is Ms. Smiley
making a stereotypical characterization here? I think so.
I think it is a bit silly how the university is called Moo U and then the
person who bails the school out of trouble, Loren Stroop, is reduced in the end
to "mooing". It is kind of a sad way to end the book. IMHO
What was Earl's role in the book, was he a passing character or a plot point?
One more post before we vote on Moo. I did some research on the web. Earl
Butz, the pig, is a reference to the former Secretary of Agriculture under
Nixon, Earl Butz, the man. This Earl Butz is a graduate of Purdue. He was a
member of Alpha Gamma Rho and late became the fraternity national president.
Mr. Butz also worked for the Purdue Exponent. So I guess there was a Purdue
tie in after all.
If you would like to go ahead and rate the book you can.
Next months selection will be Watership Down by Richard Adams. This book is
Lafayette's One Great Read selection.
Thanks for participating in this months discussion of Moo.
I believe that Earl Butz was a professor at Purdue, perhaps head of the Ag
School, before serving in Nixon's Cabinet. He got in political hot water for
telling an off-color joke on Airforce 1 I remember seeing a middle-aged couple
carrying a large poster around the PU football stadium shortly before election
day. The sign read, "Vote for Nixon and Save Our Butz." I loved it!
I read Moo when it came out and did not reread this time. I remember
thinking that it was very funny. I think all the humorous references about cow
colleges could refer to Purdue or any of the Midwest ag schools. We tend to think
astronauts instead of cows in Purdue Country and forget how important
agricultural education has been to the Midwest.
Smiley's new book Good Faith is on the top of my stack of TBR's (to be
read). I never miss her books.
I give the book a 3.5. I did not particularly like Jane Smiley's writing
style. However she gets points for realism and great reasearch. If I was the
editor though I would have cut 150 pages. The novel just seemed to drag.
This was not my favorite of her books, it did rank ahead of Horse Sense though. I like Thousand Acres
best. I will try to get her next one Blind Faith also. I would rate this a 3.5. I have also recently read Watership
Down, so for once I am ahead of the game.
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Welcome to the July BookClique discussion for "Watership Down" by Richard Adams.
"Watership Down" is greater Lafayette's second annual One Great Read, One
Greater Lafayette community-wide book group selection. There will be
numerous "in-person" discussions and programs throughout the community. For an
update of library and community activities, please visit the Library's One
Great Read website: .
The local newspaper, The Journal and Courier, also has a great website
promoting discussion of the book:
Here are some things to think about when reading (from the Journal and Courier
website):
• In general, why do authors use animals as characters in their books and how
do we as readers respond to that use? Think about cases where humanlike animals
directly engage with humans, like the White Rabbit and Alice in Alice's
Adventures in Wonderland; and cases like Watership Down where they do not. Why
rabbits?
• Why is risk-taking so important in Watership Down? What are the consequences
of not taking risks?
• What human groups and institutions are the rabbit societies imitating? For
example, Frith, the Sun god, reflects some parts of Christianity; and General
Woundwort's warren helps clarify the dangers of government that Hazel avoids
later in establishing his warren.
• What are we to make of the limited inclusion of women in the first part of
the book and their central role in the events of the later parts?
• How does this book make you respond to nature? In Watership Down, natural
elements govern many of the characters' actions. How much do we personally
respond to nature, and what are other driving forces?
• What are the attributes of a true leader? How does leadership happen and how
is it maintained? How does a true leader use resources? Hazel has certain
strengths and weaknesses, but what are his enduring qualities that make the
rabbits so loyal to him? The other side of this issue is, how are tyrants made
and how do they keep their power?
• What is the role of the stories the rabbits tell? How do the stories of our
common life make us who we are? How do our self-understandings and our
narrative life inform our experience?
I hope everyone had a pleasant July 4th holiday and is ready to get started
reading and discussing!
Sarah
When I've talked to people about reading this, many qestion, "Well, isn't it
just a tale about bunnies?" Well....yes....and no.
Many critics have argued that it is a political/social/environmental critique,
an allegory, a parable, or a fable. Yet Adams, himself, in an interview,
stated, "A lot of people have said this is a political fable or even a
religious fable or social comment. I promise you it is not a fable or an
allegory or a parable of any kind. It is a story about rabbits, that is all."
What do you think?
Sarah
Sarah, it is certainly a story about rabbits. However, when Adams so carefully chooses an epigraph for
each chapter, most often from the literature of the world that relates human stories to the action of the rabbits
in each chapter, surely we are invited by Adams to make comparisons between the humans in the epigraphs
to the rabbits. Fiver is a seer or prophet to the other rabbits. In ch. 1 the epigraph refers to the Greek seer
or prophet Cassandra, who always saw the future (and past) correctly, but who was cursed by Apollo never
to be believed. In the epigraph of ch. 1, Cassandra correctly understands that the House of Atreus reeks
with blood, not only the blood that Clytemnestra will shed (hers and Agamemnon's), but also the blood of
the past murders, Atreus slaying his brother's children and offering them as a meal to his brother. In ch. 1,
Fiver correctly sees that the Sandleford warren is to be a place of blood and death, but the rabbit who could
help the warren survive won't listen. Only Hazel really believes Fiver, not only because they are brothers from
the same litter, but also because Fiver in the past has correctly foreseen danger. In ch. 2, the epigraph from
Henry Vaughan refers to a statesman who refuses to act. And in ch. 2, the chief rabbit Threarah refused to act
on Fiver's warning about the fate of the warren. In ch. 3 the epigraph refers to the difficulties of deciding to act
when waiting seems easier. In ch. 3 Hazel although young has to decide to act, not waiting to get older as the
epigraph suggests as a possibility. In ch. 4 the epigraph from Hamlet deals with Fortinbras who stirred up lawless
men to act in his rebellion against Denmark. In ch. 4 Hazel and Fiver are like Fortinbras in that they are considered
rebels in the Sandleford warren and the Owsla come to arrest Bigwig who has decided to join the rebels.
In the novel as a whole, the narrative voice most often contrasts the human world with the animal world, frequently
in direct addresses to the reader, but sometimes there are comparisons as in ch. 24 during Hazel's adventure to
meet the rabbits in the box at Nuthanger Farm. Hazel senses that all is well and the narrative voice compares Hazel's
sense to that of a batsman or to a speaker or orator (p. 211). So everything about the novel suggests that we as
readers should be making our own comparisons between the rabbit world and the human world, even when the
narrative voice and the epigraphs are not specific.
Dorothy
Dorothy, you made some really good points about the epigraphs for each chapter.
These passages were much more than “decoration.” They were so well chosen
that, if you knew the literary reference, they foreshadowed what was to happen
in each chapter. At certain points in the novel, I was almost “afraid” to read
the epigraph, for fear of what it would reveal. Some have said that these
epigraphs dignify the action, “making it not just the trek of a bunch of
rabbits, but a movement of creatures who are no less part of nature than we
are, and whose humble disasters and migrations have a claim to the attention of
men, for all the greater scale of ‘theirs’” (Janet Adams Smith, New York Review
of Books).
I also enjoyed the stories of “Lapine” lore and myth. Adams gave the rabbits a
folk-lore and folk-heroes, a mythology complete with a creation-myth and a
belief in the after-life. What role do you think that the stories of El-
ahrairah, Frith, Prince Rainbow, and the Black Rabbit of Inle play in the
novel?
Sarah
I really enjoyed the lapine storytelling - particularly the story of "Rowsby Woof and and the Fairy Wogdog."
I could really see - in the silly names and humor of that tale - how these originated as bedtime stories for Adams'
children. But you can really look at this story on many different levels. A lot of people may look at it and claim
that it is an allegory or a political critique, or a tale of how man is ruining the natural world. I think it depends on
what the reader is looking for in the novel.
To me, the impact of man on our natural habitat really struck a note. One of my personal "issues" is urban sprawl.
Think of all the development and subdivisions going in on the south side of town - at what "price" does progress
come? Last year, I was driving on county road 350 and saw deer grazing just off the intersection of CR350 and SR231.
Now that area is full of bull dozers and construction trailers. Think of the gasing of the rabbits' home warren - all those
lives lost in preparation for razing the area for a subdivision.
I think Adams, who has a backgroud working in the British Department of Environment, had a message here - for most
of the novel he portrayed man in a very negative role. Only near the end, when the young girl and Dr. Adams rescue
Hazel, does he seem to give us any credit for "humanity".
Sarah - now off my soapbox :-)
Discussion for this book has been pretty slow....Is anyone reading it? If you haven't yet posted your
comments, time is running out... We have just one more week to discuss it before we move on to the next title.
The ideas of "home" and "community" and "security" are central throughout this novel. The rabbits risk
much for the sole purpose of finding a home where they can live out their lives, free to roam and eat
outside and do the things that rabbits have always done. There will always be danger and predators,
but to them, no protection from a predator is worth the loss of the chance to live a normal rabbit life
(contrast this with Woundwort's Efrafa warren). What do WE give up for security? This has been much
on the news lately with the USA Patriot Act. Did this novel make you think about the price we pay for
security? What about our civil liberties?
This hodgepodge of individual rabbits eventually become a cohesive community - working together for the
good of the warren. Was it because of their leadership? What are the attributes of a true leader? Although
he wasn't the biggest or the strongest - or even the smartest, Hazel demonstrates many qualities an effective
leader should have - he saw how to utilize each member of the group in order to best benefit them all, for the
most part he stayed "on task" and kept everyone working toward the goals of the warren, he was willing to use
ideas from others, he was a visionary (saw need for female rabbits and came up with a creative solution), and
he made decisions and acted upon them.
Why do you think this book was chosen for the "One Great Read One Greater Lafayette" city-wide book group?
How can our community learn from the rabbits in Watership Down?
The goal of the rabbits was very tangible - secure a safe place to live. How do our goals compare? What
are you willing to do to accomplish your goals?
What do you think of the idea of reading a book together as a community?
Why is social discourse important?
Just a few questions to ponder over the weekend - Have a good one!
Sarah
Thank you all who joined in our discussion of Watership Down. Please take a few
moments and rate this book 1(lowest) to five(highest).
The selection for next month is "A Girl Names Zippy" an autobiography by Haven
Kimmel about growing up in Mooreland, IN, a place that by some "mysterious and
powerful mathematical principle perpetually retains a population of 300." Hers
is less a formal autobiography than a collection of vignettes comprising the
things a small child would remember: sick birds, a new bike, reading comics at
the drugstore, and the mean old lady down the street.
Hope you enjoy!
Sarah
I just finished reading the book. It was very long - - but well worth the read. I think in one e-mail
we received it mentioned that the author had said he just wrote a story about rabbits. Maybe he was wise
to leave the meaning at that because it left us free to interpret the rabbits' adventures for ourselves.
At times, (for a few moments), I would forget I was reading about rabbits! For myself, I did find it a
"parable about society" as the jacket cover suggested. When you think about it being written in 1972 it
is amazing how readily the characters and happenings fit right into what is going on in the world yet today.
Maybe it should be required reading for all world leaders in 2003!
I would not have read this book if it hadn't been recommended and would have been the sorrier for it. I
will be thinking of the characters for a long time. Also liked the ending. (And I don't know if I will
ever watch the two fat rabbits in my yard in quite the same way again!)
I would rate it a 5.
I read the book last month for the reading group. I wouldn't have read it if it hadn't been the pick for
the summer. I enjoyed it and it read quickly. I know I probably missed several insights, but i enjoyed
it very much. I couldn't put it down, and read it in one weekend. I just kept wanting to know what would
happen next to the group. I would rate it 4.5.
I would not have read this book had it not been a BookClique selection. It is a bit outside my normal
reading tastes. However, I enjoyed it immensely. I rate it a 4.5.
My name is Kristin Blazak and I read the book Watership Down for my english
class at Purdue. I enjoyed the book very much. I have had it finished now for
about two weeks and I still think of the rabbits daily. I went to the One
Great Read at the library and had a great and helpful discussion. It was
interesting to meet with people you do not know and have a book discussion, as
a group. Many books I read don't stay with me for that long after I read
them. Watership Down illustrates a great struggle for survival and freedom. I
feel like I am closer to and understand rabbits better after reading this book,
even my own rabbit. I do not believe the book is just about rabbits, like the
author states unless I just got alot more out of it. Watership Down deals with
adventure, friendship, and community. I am excited to read the sequel!!
You may be thinking of "Tales from Watership Down",
which was published (same author) in 1996. While
Watership Down is on my list of the top five books of
all time, "Tales" is not really a sequel - it's just a
collection of - in my opinion - rather mediocre
stories, none of which come close to having the weight
and depth of the original. I couldn't make it through
a single story. Not that I tried them all - there's
only so much disappointment I can take!
--Ian
--- Book Clique wrote:
> My name is Kristin Blazak and I read the book
> Watership Down for my english
> class at Purdue. I enjoyed the book very much. I
...snip...
back to top
Welcome to the August Book Cliqu discussion for "A Girl Named Zippy: Growing Up Small in Mooreland Indiana,"
by Haven Kimmel. To peak your interest in this autobiography, here's a blurb from the publisher:
"When Haven Kimmel was born in 1965, Mooreland, Indiana was a sleepy little hamlet of three hundred people.
Nicknamed "Zippy" for the way she would run around like a circus monkey, this small girl was possessed of
big eyes and even bigger ears. In this lovingly told memoir, Kimmel takes readers back in time to when
small-town America was still trapped in the amber of the innocent post-war period—people help their neighbors,
go to church, keep barnyard animals in their backyards.
To three-year-old Zippy, it makes perfect sense to strike a bargain with her father to keep her baby
bottle—never mind that when she does, it's the first time she's ever spoken. The words never stop once
Zippy finds her voice, and it is a voice that Kimmel captures perfectly page after page. In her
nonplussed family, Zippy has the ideal supporting cast: her beautiful yet dour brother, Danny, a
seeker of the true faith; her sweetly sensible sister, Lindy, who wins the local beauty pageant; her
mother, Delonda, who dispenses wisdom from the corner of the couch; and her father, Bob Jarvis, who
never met a bet he didn't take. The world seen through Zippy's eyes is vivid and occasionally mind-boggling,
especially when Zippy grapples with the meaning of time and has to go lie in a "worm hole" to recover.
Whether describing a serious case of chicken love, another episode with the evil old woman across the street,
or the night Zippy's dad borrows thirty-six coon dogs and a raccoon to prove to the complaining neighbors
just how quiet his two dogs are, Kimmel treats readers to a heroine as appealing, naive, and knowing as
Scout Finch as she navigates the quirky adult world surrounding Zippy."
Also...according to the Indainapolis Star, Zippy is "Delightfully wry (and sometimes laugh-out-loud-funny)."
Enjoy! Let us know what you think.
Sarah
I loved this book,
and discussed in a local book club.
There were many points of view in the book club...
Some being that they found it incredible that she had a life like that.
I grew up in a small town, and did not find her life incredible at all.
It was very believeable.
As I read several books from a child's point of view...I am constantly made
aware of how adults discount a child's point of view...are not willing to hear
them out...or recognize their ideas...validate them with love, hugs, warm
words of encouragement...I noted that in this book also...
There is a screaming silence in what is not heard or recognized as valid in a
child's life. Zippy, of course, made it thru.
I know I was ready for major tragedy with the brother...but as far as I
remember, there was not...only the tragedy of a life not lived fully, I guess.
And as we all bumble along.
Those are the thoughts I have for now.
While reading about Zippy's numerous pets, did you think back to your own childhood pets? I certainly
thought of the various animals I grew up with: flighty chickens, mean geese, Myrtle - milking goat, Mr.
Tubbs - the big tomcat with the torn ear, Daisy - Mom's high-strung poodle, and Maggie - our beloved Irish
Setter who used to dart out the door and lead us a merry chase through the neighborhood trying to catch her.
Which of Zippy's pet stories was the most memorable for you?
> Which of Zippy's pet stories was the most memorable for you?
> ********************************************
I found the pig story hysterical. Moving hogs is not an easy task, but adding
the flying woman added humor for me. I had to put th ebook down to finish
laughing. However, I found the rest of the book sad. The pets added to the
sadness. Striving for survival seemed to be the theme for the pets as well as
Zippy. Would all of our life stories read as depressingly as this one? Small
town create a different atmosphere than the big cities...or small cities. Yet,
her father's drinking and gambling problems mixed with the mother's depression
seemed so very sad.
As a small town gal (New Richmond population under 400 then and now) I loved A Girl Named Zippy. It was
like reading 'Mayberry Unscripted'-- or the hidden-from-young-children parts of my own childhood.
Zippy's animals brought to mind our 3-legged dog, Sandy who came to that state after being found hung up
in a fence for several days; our first kittens--who adored Sandy; and the phantom Banty hen who left eggs
that my mother made custard from--whenever she found enough that hadn't been hidden too long. While I was
in high school, my parents bought me (unheard of in a town where numerous unspayed pets reproduced freely)
a pedigreed Siamese, that we walked on a leash and who had only a couple of years left on her nine lives,
teaching us to stick to the hardier free-breed.
Anne
Do you think that a child's bond with animals differs from that of an adult?
To me a child seems much more connected to nature and the outdoors. What do
you think?
What did you think of Zippy's family? (Her gun-toting sensitive dad, bookish
mother, adored big brother, and mercurial big sister). Were they typical or
unusual? She alludes to a few dark aspects of life in Mooreland, such as
poverty, a lecherous teacher, and her father's gambling problem. Does the
author seem to approve or disapprove of her upbringing?
A child looks at everything different. A child has no fear, has no judgment
to choose what is
I didn't read this book straight through but enjoyed it each time I picked it up again. My childhood
memories are more in the 40's and early 50's and in several small Midwest towns( 5 years in one with 325
population and the grade school downstairs and high school upstairs in the same building).
I, however, am not brave with animals and recalled the day my mom told me to hold the setting hen while
she turned the eggs. It was fine until the hen started flapping her wings and I immediately let her go!
My mom had to chase her down the alley and was pretty upset with me. We could laugh about it later in life.
I loved to spend time at my Uncle Bert's but he had a banty(?) rooster that chased me every time I set foot
out the door and was not above pecking quite hard. I heard from an old high school classmate recently and
she ask if I would still walk blocks out of my way to avoid a strange dog. (All those years and she still
remembered that about me!) So my animal memories were quite different from the authors but I still enjoyed
thinking and talking about them. One neighbor in that small town kept a milking cow and he would always
let us try our hand at milking if we asked - nice man. Social life centered around the Methodist Church,
school activities and the restaurant part of a local tavern (we had to walk through the bar part to reach
the restaurant area in the back that had a juke box and a shuffleboard painted on the floor. We could
just walk across the street to it from the city hall after grade school basketball games.
I thought the author picked a perfect ending for the book. It spoke volumes about her relationship with
her parents and I can't help but think she had a pretty happy childhood warts and all.
Hi Everyone:
Thank you all who joined in our discussion of A Girl Named Zippy. Please take a few moments and rate this
book 1(lowest) to five(highest).
The book for September is "Lovely Bones" by Alice Sebold.
I would give it a 4.5. I found it enjoyable and an easy read. It definately
brought back childhood memories, but ya can't dance to it!
Anne
I would rate it a 4. I read it several months ago. I could put it down, and then would pick it up to
read more. It was enjoyable and although I lved in a larger town, I had relatives who lived in smaller
towns like hers, and thought it brought bake memoties of them.
back to top
I know we are still rating Zippy but I thought I would jump in before the
weekend and introduce our selection for this month. The Lovely Bones is a
debut novel from Alice Sebold. She does have a previous book that is in
nonfiction titled "Lucky". Lucky is a memoir, Alice Sebold was the victim of
a violent rape when she was a freshman in college. The police told her she
was "lucky" the previous victim was killed and dismembered. Keeping this in
mind as you read The Lovely Bones you will see many parallels.
They say an author writes what they know. Sebold does know and she writes
about it well.
I hope you enjoy this book as much as I have.
Michelle
What do you think of Sebold's writing style so far? A friend told me that she had thought about
reading the book and heard great things about it. She was still leery of reading it because she thought
the subject would be heavy and depressing. I think that Sebold has found a fresh and thoughtful approach.
The book makes you ponder but not feel heavy hearted. What do you think?
Michelle
I felt the same way about the book when I first heard about it.
In fact, it was recommended to me about four times before I finally
decided to give it a try. Yes, the subject deals with her murder, but I
didn't find it nearly as depressing as I thought. I really enjoyed it.
Kiersti
Hi all,
I felt the same way. I hesitated to read it because of the topic and the things in the news. However,
I enjoyed the book when I finally did read it, and felt that the author had a unique way of talking
through the character, that I didn't feel as bad about the book as I thought the topic would lead.
May I invite you all to the fiction reading club that meets at the library on the first Tuesday of
the month, as we will be discussing this book on October 7 at 7:00p.m.
What does everyone think of the book so far? Why do you think a book that
deals so much with heaven has so little to do with religion? Is Sebold trying
to make a point here?
Michelle
Perhaps dealing specifically with religion, rather than spirituality, would
cut off too much of her audience. Or, perhaps she herself is more spiritual
than connected to an organized religion. She could be trying to make the
point that heaven (or any form of the great hereafter) is not tied to
religion and that not only people of a specific religion (or any religion
for that matter) are rewarded after death.
sb
Heaven in this case is referred to as "my heaven" not the heaven. Could this
just be an in between place??? The book mentions that Susie's family has a
church but it is never mentioned what religion they are. Could the author be
whitewashing the whole relgion thing so the book will appeal to more people?
I was glad the author chose not to deal with a specific religion's concept of
heaven. It left room for us to examine our own feelings regarding an
afterlife. Most people, even those attached to a particular religion, have their own
personal ideas about a life after death.
N.B.
If the author is trying to say that everyone will go to some sort of heaven
that they create, what will Mr. Harvey be doing? I just find that a scary
thought. In his heaven he could be preying on little girls. I do find the
author's concept of "my heaven" nice though. I did wonder in one passage where
Suzie was talking about walking too far in her heaven and then she would feel
the corn stalks and smell the earth and it would all come back. Is this
because she was so violently murdered or would each person's heaven have a
boundary?
Do you think Susie's death is the reason her family drifted apart? Or was it
just a catalyst for all the other problems to come to the surface? Is this a
realistic portrayal of family life?
Do you think there is a reason the Susie's last name is Salmon? Is it symbolic?
I was wondering about any significence of the last name Salmon and the part
where Lindsey used the fish symbol on her name tag at the gifted camp. There
was no further comment on religion at that point so I dismissed it as devise
the author had created.
Many familys survive less than passionate relationships between spouses,
settling into a comfort zone. Many mothers wait out their childrens' journey to
self-sufficiency,then finally become or try to become something 'more'. But to
have such a truama as the murder of a child forces those fine cracks in
relationships to become chasms--or perhaps becomes the excuse needed to push
those widening spaces further apart and turn lives in different directions.
Also, I wonder would have been a significant difference if the story had been
set in the present, since there are still plenty of unsolved
murder/disappearances now. The author might have had to deal with froensic
technology and put more emphasis on Len's work than she wanted.
I was momentarily taken aback (a phrase I never thought I'd use) then the
author used the term "Ground Zero"--I flipped back to check the copyright date
of 2002 and wondered was that a slip-up or was that term used in the 70's. I
had never heard it then, though perhaps it was used in Viet Nam. Does nybody
know?
Anne
Lovely Bones - Hi, all,
Just a short note, yes all of the things you stated could lead to a family breaking up. The death of a
child can tear apart a family and often blame is laid on each other and even felt by the other spouse.
The term ground zero dates back to the area under a nuclear bomb blast(1945) at least. So, we were using
it for an awful place to be before 2001. It has just become more of an everyday term in our recent history.
I think Salmon can be looked at in two ways. A salmon is a game fish that is popular on the dinner table.
In a way this is how Mr. Harvey looked at Susie, a consumable. I know that is a bad bad thought.
On the other hand one of the traits of a salmon is there mating process. A salmon will risk its existence to
swim upstream to its place of birth from the ocean to breed. In a way this is what Susie did. She went
against the flow from heaven (ocean) to earth (place of birth) to have sex.
I don't know if the author was thinking of either of these things when she wrote the book though. I can
find no reference to it at all.
~M
More Lovely Bones comments.
To be honest, I have not been following the comments on this book thru the
month, but got the book for my birthday and sat down last night, and read it
straight thru...
Amazing,
gripping, incredibly sad, familiar - in the way that her emotions were
expressed thru nature, and the earth.
I found myself feeling choked up thru most of the book...
The sadness of her death,
the struggling of all the people.
How death can affect many many lives..and how her short life affected so
many.
Ruth's ability to see thru the veil of life and death, and Susie's ability to
realize that she could take advantage of that ONE MORE TIME>
Living people seeing the dead for an instant. When her father smashed all
the ships in a bottle...and seeing her face and laughing.
I liked the author's depiction of heaven...I would like to think that it is a
learning area, and an awareness area, as described...
Very worthwhile book.
I did want closure thru the whole book and wanted them to find her body..but
that did not happen.
In my opinion, it was very realistic of family life, and if someone has gone
thru death in an immediate family, a father/mother, sibling, child, I think
the story is true to what is felt and how things can happen and will
happen...and how that person is not far from your miind. - in dreams and thought.
When I was in second grade, the Palm Sunday tornado went thru Indiana in
April 11, 1965. A classmate of mine was riding his bicycle in Russiaville, IN,
and got caught in the terrible tornado and lost his life. This boy, David, was
killed. Before his death, he had called on me in class, and I thought he was
nice. After he died, at that young age, I remember I had a dream about him,
and we were in the classroom, and we were dancing together. Many years later,
his sister was at my house with her husband. I told his sister that I
remembered her brother and thought that her youngest child, her son, reminded me of
David. She was so eager to hear stories about her brother, because she said,
after his death, her parents put away all of his pictures, and never spoke of
him again. I told her about her brother, what I could remember and I told
her about my dream. It gave her alot of joy. I tell this story to show that
some of the things discussed in the book are not far from what happens in real
life.
I would recommend this book for any book club...very powerful!!!
What do you think of the ending where Mr. Harvey dies? If you look back in the
book to the Gifted Symposium, they talk about the game "how to commit the
perfect murder". Susie mentions that the game is popular in heaven and she
always chooses the icicle as her weapon of choice because it melts. Do you
think when Susie choose to move on in her heaven things were set in motion by
the higher power for Mr. Harvey to get his due? Or did Susie do him in?
Michelle
Hmmm...Susie was the one who noticed the icicles--'long and plentiful.' I bet
she 'done him in.' That gives her character revenge and generaly rounds out the
story. It's too bad the family won't know about it until the body is dicovered,
if then. I guess that would be too tidy.
Anne
The month is almost over. It is time to rate The Lovely Bones before we move on to the next selection.
The rating scale is 1-5. One for hated it and 5 for the best book ever.
Michelle Ogden
Library Aide Campus
I would give it a 3.5.
I don't think it was awful, in fact I liked it better than I thought I
would. But I was not overly impressed and haven't recommended it to anyone
else yet.
Kiersti
I would give it a 4. It held my interest and the author wrapped things up in
the end, but due to the gruesome part I would not buy it nor read it again.
Anne
5
3, I hated the ending.
I'd give it a 4.5.........It was hard to read. I'm not into graphic
descriptions and this was just a bit much for me. I was intrigued by the
inference that you can't truly enter Heaven until you can leave your 'life
on earth' behind. I never considered Heaven a place where I would care
about those I left behind. Yet, I sometimes think that my father and other
relatives that I loved was looking down at me and watching over me. It
gives you pause for thought on just what you believe. At least it did that
to me.
From my perspective, that was its only redeeming value. I don't think Susie
'killed' Mr. Harvey. I can't imagine that type of malice existing in
Heaven. And wasn't that where she was supposed to be?
Rita
I read the book from front to back in one evening, I could not put it down...
It was incredible.
I would give it a 4.5.
I did want closure, wanting to find the body...
but do we ever get full closure in life??
I doubt it.
very remarkably written.
Forgive me for going back to LOVELY BONES, but I just now obtained the book. I
was quite grateful that the author did not go into more detail than she did
during the murder. I was quite disappointed then when she wrote that
a "heavenly being" came to earth to have sex?? Did not find that part
believable. It seemed to be added for the current culture's interest instead
of the best interest of the book.
Kept my attention until the sex scene at the end. Portrayal of the family's
pain was quite realistic, in my opinion.
I agree. The sex scene was gratuitis. I really liked this book. I thought that
the whole point of it was the way Suzy had to come to terms with no longer
being on Earth and accepting that she, along with everyone else had to move on.
I felt that coming Back and having sex nearly ruined the credibility that the
author had created up to that point. Suzy was well on her way to acceptance of
her situation, that Earth was no longer an option. Maybe the author didn't have
enough confidence in her audience to let Suzy tough it out, but I think the
book would have been much better if she had.
In a message dated 10/6/2003 4:39:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
> felt that coming Back and having sex nearly ruined the credibility that the
>
> author had created up to that point. Suzy was well on her way to acceptance
> of
> her situation, that Earth was no longer an option.
In response to the above email:
My opinion of Suzy coming back was that her friend Ruth could go on and
experience heaven. It was a dual compromise, and even though, nothing is mentioned
about Ruth's experience...
I respect the above opinion, but my thoughts were that the author did not
lose credibility in this view, it just provided another thought provoking twist
to the story...
I would rate this book a 5. I especially appreciated the unusual treatment of
an afterlife. It somehow made up for the violent death of a young person.
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Welcome to the October BookClique discussion of Wicked: The Life and Times of
the Wicked Witch of the West, by Gregory Maguire.
Synopsis:
“When Dorothy triumphed over the Wicked Witch of the West in L. Frank Baum’s
classic tale, The Wizard of Oz, we heard only her side of the story. But what
about her arch-nemesis, the mysterious witch? Where did she come from? How
did she become so wicked? And what is the true nature of evil? Gregory
Maguire creates a fantasy world so rich and vivid that we will never look at Oz
the same way again. Wicked is about a land where animals talk and strive to be
treated like first-class citizens, Munchkinlanders seek the comfort of middle-
class stability and the Tin Man becomes a victim of domestic violence. And
then there is the little green-skinned girl named Elphaba, who will grow up to
be the infamous Wicked Witch of the West, a smart, prickly and misunderstood
creature who challenges all our preconceived notions about the nature of good
and evil.”
Sorry I’m a bit late getting started with the discussion This is quite a
long novel and quite complex. I’ve not quite finished it yet about 30 pages
to go…. I’m still trying to figure out how all the events tie together.
How many of you have read Baum’s original Wizard of Oz? Were the writing
styles similar? Did Baum include all the politico-religious discussions and
conflicts that Maguire includes? Maguire enriches the novel with creation
stories and beliefs of pagan (Lurlinist), Unionist (Unnamed God), and Pleasure
Faith (Kumbric Witch) beliefs.
What about poor little Elphaba? She had a pretty miserable childhood with a
mother that practically detested her and a father that was always more
interested in his religious converts than his family. Was her father, Frex,
a “religious convict” In Elphaba,s converstion with Boq and Crope on page
113, Boq asks Elphaba if it is a religious conviction that she keeps herself
so dry (from rain). Elphaba responds, “I’ve told you before, I don’t
comprehend religion, although “conviction” is a concept I’m beginning to get.
In any case, someone with a real religious conviction is, I propose, a
religious “convict,” and deserves locking up.”
Just some things to think about as you’re reading….
Sarah
I read Wicked a couple of years ago and although I loved it, I'm not reading it again, will just
watch the comments. I thought you'd be interested to know that it's being turned into a musical on Broadway:
http://www.villagevoice.com/ads/wicked.html
I think it would be difficult to turn this novel into a musical. Having not seen an actual Broadway play.....
I associate musicals with movies and this story, more specifically, with the original Wizard of Oz movie
featuring Judy Garland. This novel seems too dark and depressing to be a musical (in my humble opinion).
For instance: the numerous affairs of Elphaba's mother (and father) and her unhappy childhood, Elphaba's
years as loner, a nun, an outcast, an Animal rights activist/terrorist, her affair with a married man, and
her neglect of Liir, and her eventual death, etc. It would be pretty darn depressing. I wonder if they
will "glamourize" or "Disneyize" the musical version? I noticed in the ad for the musical that it was
subtitled, "the Untold Story of the Witches of Oz." I think that might be a more appropriate subtitle
for the novel also - as the story covers Galinda (Glinda) and Nessarose.
How well do you think this novel will adapt to Broadway?
I did read Frank L. Baum's book years ago as a child, so my memory is a
little hazy. In my opinion (from what I can remember of Baum's book), the
styles couldn't be more different, and I think that's the point. Maguire is
building up a complex world from Baum's fairly simple one as a sort of
explanation of how the Wicked Witch of the West came about by the time
Dorothy meets her. I'm kind of seeing this as Maguire's way of saying that
the definition of "Wicked" or "Evil" is not as black and white as most
people think, or at least the way it's portrayed in Baum's book.
I think Maguire is creating a complex human character out of Elphaba,
someone you can't easily label as wicked or evil. I haven't finished the
book, so this is just conjecture at this point.
Anyway, these are just opinions. There are more ways to intrepret this
novel, which I think is one of its strengths.
Chris Vaughn
Quoting Book Clique :
... In my opinion (from what I can remember of Baum's book), the
> styles couldn't be more different, and I think that's the point.
His style of writing is sometimes jolting to me when I begin to "acclimate" to
the setting and times of this story and then he throws in words that seem to me
to be very modern and current terms. It jars me from the book to current life
and back again. I find it jarring.
Quoting Book Clique :
> I think it would be difficult to turn this novel into a musical. ...
> How well do you think this novel will adapt to Broadway?
My cynical view is that they can take any book, etc and turn it into any other
format. We have seen wonderful books, factual stories, etc turned into movies
that cannot be identified other than the title. I think the costuming and
scenery would make the musical.
However, one must take into account the fact that Broadway was hit hard by the
financial caution that swept over America. Great care would be required to
ensure its success - hence, the adaptation of the book would need to be popular
with the general public who support the arts.
I am currently earning my Master of Fine Arts in theatre and I have seen countless productions:
straight plays and musicals, tours, civic theatre, Regional (like Indianapolis Repertory Theatre),
and Broadway. While I agree there are many movie and performance musicals and plays that are fluffy
and light, for example "Guys and Dolls" or even "Oklahoma!". However, there have been numerous
successful shows that are dark and depressing. "Jekyll and Hyde" and "Sweeny Todd" are excellent
examples. Frankly, almost anything by Steven Sondheim would be a good example. Now, there are some
theatre-goers who do not like that type of theatre. For example, while I love "Jekyll and Hyde", my
mother does not. She thinks it is too dark and depressing. Yet for as much as that description
circulates around this show, it was extremely successful on Broadway and touring. The question of
a book or movie turning into a successful musical or play relies much more on the direction, choreography,
casting, and design of the show. If you have a great lyricist and an equally great director, then even
the darkest material can be enjoyable. Now, as with any book, movie, TV show, musical, or play, what
one person enjoys, another may want to demand their money back. I realize I am biased in asking people
to give even the oddest material musical/play a chance, however, even I have been proven wrong in my
original assumptions about a show.
"Wicked" is often described as an exploration of the nature of good and evil.
Is it successful in that regard? In what sense (if any) is Elphaba "wicked"?
What about Glinda? In what sense is she "good"?
Also, many of the historical and setting details are from Baum's books.
However, the main characters in this book (Elphie and Glinda) are based
primarily on the movie characters. Could this book succeed *without* the
cultural iconography and the ubiquitousness of the movie?
Other authors have also retold tales of OZ (Geoff Ryman's "Was" and Philip Jose
Farmer's "A Barnstormer in Oz." Have any of you read these novels? How do
they compare to "Wicked"?
Maguire has at least two other novels that retell a classic tale: Mirror
Mirror, his retelling of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, and Confessions of
an Ugly Stepsister, his retelling of the Cinderella tale (for which I've
included descriptions below). He also has quite a set of children's books
under his belt, including, Six Haunted Hairdos, Seven Spiders Spinning and Four
Stupid Cupids.
Mirror Mirror
In Mirror Mirror Snow White is called Bianca de Nevada. She is born on a farm
in Tuscany in 1495, and when she is seven, her father is ordered by the
duplicitous Cesare Borgia to go on a quest to reclaim the relic of the original
Tree of Knowledge, a branch bearing three living apples that are thousands of
years old. Bianca is left in the care of her father's farm staff and the
beautiful -- and madly vain -- Lucrecia Borgia, Cesare's sister. But Lucrecia
becomes jealous of her lecherous brother's interest in the growing child and
plots a dire fate for Bianca in the woods below the farm. There Bianca finds
herself in the home of seven dwarves -- the creators of the magic mirror -- who
await the return of their brother, the eighth dwarf, long gone on a quest of
his own....
Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister
Gregory Maguire's chilling, wonderful retelling of Cinderella is a study in
contrasts. Love and hate, beauty and ugliness, cruelty and charity--each idea
is stripped of its ethical trappings, smashed up against its opposite number,
and laid bare for our examination. Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister begins in
17th-century Holland, where the two Fisher sisters and their mother have fled
to escape a hostile England. Maguire's characters are at once more human and
more fanciful than their fairy-tale originals. Plain but smart Iris and her
sister, Ruth, a hulking simpleton, are dazed and terrified as their mother,
Margarethe, urges them into the strange Dutch streets. Within days, purposeful
Margarethe has secured the family a place in the home of an aspiring painter,
where for a short time, they find happiness.
But this is Cinderella, after all, and tragedy is inevitable. When a wealthy
tulip speculator commissions the painter to capture his blindingly lovely
daughter, Clara, on canvas, Margarethe jumps at the chance to better their
lot. "Give me room to cast my eel spear, and let follow what may," she crows,
and the Fisher family abandons the artist for the upper-crust Van den Meers.
When Van den Meer's wife dies during childbirth, the stage is set for
Margarethe to take over the household and for Clara to adopt the role
of "Cinderling" in order to survive. What follows is a changeling adventure,
and of course a ball, a handsome prince, a lost slipper, and what might even be
a fairy godmother. In a single magic night, the exquisite and the ugly swirl
around in a heated mix:
Everything about this moment hovers, trembles, all their sweet, unreasonable
hopes on view before anything has had the chance to go wrong. A stepsister
spins on black and white tiles, in glass slippers and a gold gown, and two
stepsisters watch with unrelieved admiration. The light pours in, strengthening
in its golden hue as the sun sinks and the evening approaches. Clara is as
otherworldly as the Donkeywoman, the Girl-Boy. Extreme beauty is an
affliction...
These sound very interesting.... Sarah
Hi Guys:
Just another quick note about the musical "Wicked" - I found a website
featuring comments from Maguire on opening night of the musical.
He was asked: "Your book is fairly serious and had some deep and philosophical
themes. Obviously this is a musical; what transferred?"
He replied: "Books are all about secrets," he answered. "You don't read a book
if you can tell by the flap copy what's going to happen at the end. And in a
way the stage is like that too. The stage is all about what evolves in terms of
plot and what evolves in terms of character so I'm not going to give any
secrets away. I WILL say that a great deal of what I think of as the dark
serious part of the book has been retained. It was been touched with another
kind of magic so that it passes unto the eyes in a different way."
Source: http://www.musicalschwartz.com/wicked-maguire.htm
Also check out Maguire's official web site: http://www.gregorymaguire.com/
Sarah
I finally finished the book. Loved the different perspective of the ending.
The background about the culture and religions and people (plus animals and
Animals) was great. Really set the mood for the story. Did the original book
hold such details about Dorothy and the "nasty" little dog or about Oz?
The nature of good and evil were not as directly commented as I would have
thought. So interesting how people change due to life-altering experiences.
Especially when many are involved in the same experience and watch them go in
such different directions. This book is a great study on that. Thanks for
recommending the book!
Is there a particular event in the book that you feel is the "turning point" in Elphie's life?
Just a few more questions to get us through the end of the month...
"Wicked" doesn't seem to have a lot of overtly gay themes, but it is considered a staple in
gay bookstores. Why do you think this is so?
Also, how do you think the nontraditional family the Elphaba grows up in affects her as an adult
(specifically the relationship between Turtle Heart and her parents)?
Sarah
PS: Any of you dressing up as a witch for Halloween? Either "wicked" or otherwise?
Happy Halloween to All:
As "witches" and other fantastically dressed people wonder in and out of the
library throughout the day, I can't help but think of Elphaba, Glinda, and the
gang from this book! We have several staff members dressed as witches -
including the tall pointy hat; I've also seen a couple students dressed as
witches (including beautiful long pink hair and very cool pink and black
striped tights); and we have a staff member dressed as a beautiful fairy,
complete with wings, that reminds me of the movie version of Glinda. What a
bizarre, fantastical day!
...And a perfect day to tie up our discussion of "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire.
Please take a minute to post any final comments and to give the novel a rating,
0 to 5, with 5 being "absolutely amazing - great book - I'll recommend it to
all my freinds."
Thanks for joining me in this discussion!
Sarah
I may have missed the rating post. If so, I hope I can still get my number in. I didn't care
for the book, what I read, that is. I got as far as the end of the first chapter and just couldn't
get into it. I found it offensive at times and a little too 'OUT THERE" for my reading tastes. I
would give it a 1.
I liked the unique perspective this novel supplied to a traditional, well-known story. Very
interesting....I may try some of his other novels that provide a unique twist to classic fairy tales.
I rate it a 3.
I had previously read Lost, another novel by this author, and was
disappointed, so I started Wicked with some reservations. I ended up
enjoying Wicked much more than I did Lost. I would give Wicked a 3.5.
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Welcome to the November online book discussion of the book, "Secret Life of Bees" by Sue Monk Kidd.
Set in 1964 during the Civil Rights Act, this is the story of Lily Owens, a young teenager who runs
away with her black nanny in search of information about her mother who died ten years earlier under
troubling circumstances. Lily's only clue about her mother leads them to Tiburon, South Carolina where
they encounter the sisterhood of women.
To begin the discussion, there is a theme throughout the book, "Every little thing wants to be loved."
Who is looking for love in this story? What kinds of love? Who finds the love?
Tell us what you think!
For information about the author or to read reviews you can visit: www.suemonkkidd.com
Hello Fellow Readers,
As you read the story, "The Secret Life of Bees" by Sue Monk Kidd think about the following questions,
and respond if you like:
For those of us who experienced the 60's and the Civil Rights first hand, does this story accurately
convey the times? For those of us who did not experience the 60's first hand, do you feel that this
story gives you a better understanding of that time in history?
Another consideration, some critics lump this book into the category of "Southern Gothic" stories.
Southern Gothic is defined by:
"Southern Gothic Period: 1925 - present:
The Old South's reputation for sultry decadence in a literature that meshes the moody romanticism of
Gothic novels with the American South's sensibility of tragedy and doom. The South's mystique of decay
and danger became a preoccupation for some mid-twentieth-century novelists, who were drawn to its cultural
richness (influences include Creole, Cajun, African American, and Caribbean) and to its exotic history
of slavery, pirating, and voodoo."(source: www.artsandculture.com)
Do you agree or disagree that "The Secret Life of Bees" is indeed a Southern Gothic?
Be sure to post your thoughts...
Happy Reading!
I think I agree that the book is Southern Gothic. However I am still listening to the first CD of 10,
so I don't think I am going to be a very good judge of that. I am hoping that she is remembering the
death of her mother in a fuzzy way. I hope she was not the one who shot her mother but that would mean
it was her dad who did and that might not be so good either. So far I do like the book. The girl who
does the cd talking book is excellent. I really believe she is the main character.
Concerning the first part of the question; some places are still like this in the south. Not wanting
to start a big argument on this or anything though, so I will leave it at that.
I lived in the North during the unrest caused by the Civil Rights movement during the South, so though
I was about the same ...
...snip...
... don't think Monk exaggerates the treatment of Rosaleen or the imprisonment of the Black teenage boys
in a Southern town.
I also found the portrayal of T.Ray and his abuse of Lily to be true to the times in that it goes virtually
ignored by the community. Granted, such situations are still ignored or covered up today, but I think people
are more aware of the harmfulness of such relationships and more likely to intervene. I had a good friend whose
father was much like T. Ray and, though I was scared of him and for my friend, it didn't occur to me to try to
do anything to prevent it.
I find the feminism of the novel--the sisters running a business and their support of Lily and Rosaleen
resulting in their both being able to escape their situations--heartwarming but something of a modern day
vision that doesn't seem likely to have been possible in that time and place. What do the rest of you think?
I had no problem believing whole-heartedly in the relationship between the sisters and Lily and Rosaleen.
Because of the period of time this took place, women, especially black women, were not valued for who they
were and what they could contribute to society. Women had to stick together and form a unity they could form
nowhere else. I enjoyed this book and would recommend it 100%.
Let us know what you thought of the book from 1 to 5.
For December we are doing our annual best of the year discussion.
What was the best book you read this year?
Why is it your favorite?
Please share your thoughts with the group and we can all get some new ideas about what to read.
Maybe we will even choose your favorite book for a 2004 discussion!
I give the book a five. I really liked it. I am normally not a big fiction reader but this story
captivated me. It was a story that did not let the main character "off the hook". So many novels want
to have a shiny happy ending. This one was bitter sweet. Lilly really did kill her mom and her dad
really did not care about her. However Lilly did find people who loved her even if they were not her
family the sisters and Rosaleen became a family.
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My favorite book this year was "Oracle Night" by Paul Auster. It is an intellectually and emotionally
convoluted work about a writer who is recovering from a serious accident. The story flips between the
writer and the book he is writing with strange parallels. Our perception of love and relationship is
continually challenged and examined.
You may be more familiar with Paul Auster as the screenwriter of the movies "Smoke" and "Blue in the Face".
I liked "Perdido Street Station" by China Mieville. Definitely a very different urban fantasy. The city
is so richly detailed, all of its ugliness and unruly denizens so well described. You won't find traditional
fantasy elements like elves or fairies here. All the creatures are totally original from the cactus-man
toughs to cyborgs who run on steam power. All these original ideas are wrapped up with a tantalizing mystery.
This had to be one of the most original and richly woven novels I have ever read.
I think that my very favorite book this year was a graphic novel, "Blankets" by
Craig Thompson. It is a story about growing up, losing and finding faith and
finding and losing friendship. The drawings and the writing work together so
well to tell the story.
I also really liked "The Dogs of Babel" by Carolyn Parkhurst. In the book a man
tries to teach his dog to talk, which while you're reading it you really kinda
start to believe he might do it. The heart of the story is about coping with
loss.
"Cry No More" by Linda Howard
Hi Book Clique members!
Keep sending in your favorite books of 2003.
Here are the books we will be discussing next year:
January - "The Hours" by Michael Cunningham
February - "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich
March - "House of Sand and Fog" by Andre Dubus III
Have a Happy Holiday.
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Happy New Year!
Welcome to the January Bookclique discussion of “The Hours” by Michael Cunningham.
This is a fascinating novel and a quick read…so get started today.
I look forward to the discussion -
Sarah
Summary of the novel:
The Hours presents three women, from different times and places, and follows each through a
single day. The author cuts back and forth, in place and time, from one to the other. The first is
the novelist Virginia Woolf, whose suicide by drowning is described in the prologue. Various slices
of a day in which she works on her novel, “Mrs. Dalloway,”, are presented in the course of Cunningham’s
book. Clarissa Vaughan appears next. A contemporary book editor living in Greenwich Village with her
long-time lesbian lover, Clarissa’s day is taken up with preparations for a congratulatory party for
her old friend and (briefly) lover, Richard, who has just won a prestigious literary award. Her actions
are an unconscious repetition of Mrs. Dalloway (although Richard’s pre-party suicide in a fit of
AIDS-driven dementia is certainly of today’s world). Laura Brown is the last major character. A post-war
California housewife and mother, she is entirely at sea. Reading (specifically Mrs. Dalloway) means
more to her than her perfectly comfortable and well-ordered life. Not surprisingly, suicide seems an
increasingly attractive option to her. She is the only character to cross over into a section other
than her own; she makes a startling entry into Clarissa’s world, as the novel ends.
Michael Cunningham:
Michael Cunningham was born in Cincinnati in 1952, and grew up outside of Los Angeles. He attended
Stanford, and earned a MFA at the prestigious Iowa Writers’ Program. He now lives in New York City,
and teaches creative writing at Columbia University. He has regularly had short fiction published in
the magazines. His first novel, “A Home at the End of the World,”appeared in 1990, to good reviews.
“Flesh and Blood” followed in 1995. Cunningham has been more careful than facile; he does not hurry
his new books. “The Hours” appeared in 1998. In 1999 it received both the Pen/Faulkner and the Pulitzer
Awards for fiction. Cunningham himself called it "my strongest book, as you write you get better at it."
In its 81-year history, Cunningham is the first avowed gay writer to win the Pulitzer Prize. Although
he argues against limiting writing to an unnecessarily narrow slice of experience, his writing has,
in fact, generally focused on gay characters and themes. The Hours is no exception, although it has been
received enthusiastically by a mainstream audience.
Source: Novelist Book Discussion Guide
I hope you have all had a chance to dive into this story.
Cunningham does not write smoothly in this book. There is a lot of punctuation
- thoughts are qualified, contradicted, juxtaposed. Commas are ubiquitous;
dashes and parentheses are common and sentences are interactive processes.
There are backward swings of memory launched by inconspicuous images, detailed
passages of introspection, and the scrambling of time and place. What does the
pattern of the writing contribute to the feeling of the novel? Does Cunningham
capture the dynamics of perception, human consciousness and experience? Are you
finding it difficult to get through?
How many of you have read Virginia Woolf's "Mrs. Dalloway"?. Would you describe
"The Hours" as a modern version of it? A commentary upon it? A dialogue with
it? Which characters in "The Hours" correspond with those of Woolf's novel?
In what ways are they similar, and at what point do the similarities cease and
the characters become freestanding individuals in their own right?
I have yet to read "Mrs. Dalloway" but it is my understanding that, similar
to "The Hours" that a stolen kiss is central to both novels (between Mrs.
Dalloway and Sally, Virginia and Vita, Laura Black and neighbor Kitty, and
finally, Clarissa and Richard. In the moment of the kiss, characters see the
possibilities of a vivid alluring future. Why do some of these characters turn
away from such a kiss? And why do they treasure, even obsess over, that kiss
for years?
Just some points to ponder and a few questions to get the discussion going.
Sarah
I've just started reading, but I am finding it difficult to keep the flow. I
feel as if I am in their demented heads and the thoughts are too random.
However, I shall plow through it.
I just finished and found it got easier as you progressed. By the end, I
wanted more of each story. It was depressing overall, yet it had some very
poignant spots, too. Good book. Does this deep study of the human mind
make it a candidate for the Pulitzer? I've often wondered just what they
are looking at when they select books for that prize.
Rita
Yes, I started it when the movie came out aND PUT IT DOWN. sOMEWHAT DEPRESSING
AND hard to get through. i didn;t think about the writing style. Yet some
of that may be what led to my thoughts about the book. i have started it
again with the attitude to try and finish it. I also haven't read Mrs.
Dalloway, nor anything by Virginnia Wolfe. Interesting to compare though.
Did you know that "The Hours" was Virginia Woolf's working title for "Mrs.
Dalloway"? But other than that link - Do you think Cunningham chose a good
title? Can you see why he chose that title?
I thought he did a good job of referencing "hours" at various point throughout
the novel. Overall, hours were to be endured and getting through them is the
"reward." Although, according to Clarissa, "these hours will inevitably be
followed by others, far darker and more difficult." Richard's despair is plain
when he states, "But there are still the hours, aren't there? One and then
another, and you get through that one and then, my god, there's another.
I'm so sick."
Even at the end, Clarissa thinks to herself, "And here she is, herself,
Clarissa, not Mrs. Dalloway anymore; there is no one now to call her that.
Here she is with another hour before her."
What do you think?
Sarah
PS: Have any of you seen the recent movie based on this novel? Is it true to
the story?
Yes, I thought it depressing overall, but fairly true to life. How many of us
have not wondered at some point, like Laura Brown, "Is this it? Is this all
there is to life? Is this the way MY life should be?" and wanted to get away
from it all (yes, I admit that checking into a hotel for only a couple hours may
be a bit extreme). But to take a vacation from our own life has a certain
appeal.
Each of the characters, at some point in the novel, sees himself or herself
as a failure. Virginia Woolf, as she walks to her death, reflects that "She
herself has failed. She is not a writer at all, really; she is merely a gifted
eccentric." Richard disgustedly admits to Clarissa, "I thought I was a genius.
I actually used that word, privately, to myself." Yet both are inappropriate
perceptions of failure - We know about Virginia Woolf; Richard is legitimized
by award. They are huge successes but unalbe or unwilling to look at themselves
that way.
Are the novel's characters unusual, or are such feelings of failure an essential
and inevitable part of the human condition?
What are your thoughts?
>Does this deep study of the human mind
> make it a candidate for the Pulitzer? I've often wondered just what they
> are looking at when they select books for that prize.
> Rita
Hmmm…. The criteria for a Pulitzer?
I looked at the Pulitzer web site (Pulitzer.org) and found this info:
There are no set criteria for the judging of the Prizes (of course). The
definitions of each category are the only guidelines. It is left up to the
Nominating Juries and The Pulitzer Prize Board to determine exactly what makes
a work "distinguished."
Cunningham won in 1999 for “distinguished fiction by an American author,
preferably dealing with American life.” Also nominated as finalists in this
category were: : "Cloudsplitter" by Russell Banks (HarperFlamingo), and "The
Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver (HarperFlamingo).
Submission requirements for the prizes in Letters (books) include:
Books first published in the US during the year under consideration. All
entries must be made available for purchase by the general public in either
hardcover or bound paperback form. In the Fiction, Biography and General Non-
Fiction categories, authors must be American citizens. In the History
category, the author may be of any nationality but the subject of the book must
be U.S. history. In the Poetry category, the award is for original verse by an
American author.
Sorry, Rita I don’t see "deep study of the human mind" as far as the criteria
go.
Sarah ;-)
I was fascinated with this book. Also, it led me to read Mrs. Dalloway by
Virginia Woolf. On the jacket cover of Mrs. Dalloway,it said, "Clarissa's
Day captures in a definite matrix the drift of thought and feeling in a period,
the point of view of a class, and seems almost to indicate the strength and
weakness of an entire civilization." _New York Times
In this respect I feel both books were similar. Language was used is such a
way that the reader was able to know each character in depth and with
understanding even though one book is set in only one day of a woman's life
and the other is set in one day of three women's lives- "from different times
and places"
I was surprised with the ending of The Hours - surprised that I did not see
that coming as I read the book! When I do see the movie, I feel it will now
be a deeper and richer experience from having read both of these books.
I read the book and then watched the movie. Definitely the better sequence.
The movie was excellently done. Followed the book well and caught the
thoughts and feelings of the characters quite well. Now I want to reread
the book.
I haven't read Mrs. Dalloway, but it is now on my list.
This may be a tough act to follow for the Book Clique.
Rita
I rented the movie over the weekend. I definitely believe that having read
the book gave me a much broader understanding of the movie and the characters.
I like the actors that were chosen to play the various characters (Clarissa
Vaughn=Meryl Streep; Sally=Alison Janney; Laura Brown=Julianne Moore; Virginia
Woolf=Nicole Kidman; Richard=Ed Harris (always one of my favorite actors).
Of course, like all movie versions of books, they had to leave a lot out. But
the visual and auditory input that the movie gave (in addition to the depth of
story I had from having read the book) made this a remarkable movie. And VERY
depressing! I cried practically the whole way through!
What is the significance of the kisses between Laura Brown and Kitty and between
Virginia and her sister Vanessa? Did they truly desire the other person, in a
sexual way? Or was it more a desire for more than they each had?
Does Clarissa's fond reflection (dare I say obsession) of her kiss with Richard
mean she is not happy in her current life? She feels that there is a sense of
missed opportunity, and that "maybe there is nothing, ever, that can equal the
recollection of having been young together." (p. 97)
Is her "stable and affectionate marriage" with Sally enough?
I'd be interested to know your thoughts...
Sarah
What is the significance of the kisses between Laura Brown and Kitty and
between Virginia and her sister Vanessa? Did they truly desire the other
person, in a sexual way? Or was it more a desire for more than they each
had?
The kiss between Laura and Kitty was the most striking one for me. Kitty
had begun to 'open up' emotionally and I think the kiss was an attempt by
Laura to take that emotional closeness a step further. We rarely share our
deepest feelings with anyone. I think Laura wanted that closeness with
Kitty and that was what the kiss was all about.
With Virginia and her sister, I think it was a similar sentiment. Virginia
was not happy in Richmond and couldn't find a way to talk with her sister
about her feelings. (This is where the movie did a wonderful job of
relaying that scene.) Vanessa was off to London and making light of the
life she led. Virginia was, in a way, envious of that life. She wanted her
sister to see the value it held.
Does Clarissa's fond reflection (dare I say obsession) of her kiss with
Richard mean she is not happy in her current life? She feels that there is
a sense of missed opportunity, and that "maybe there is nothing, ever, that
can equal the recollection of having been young together." (p. 97) Is her
"stable and affectionate marriage" with Sally enough?
At that point in time, NO, her marriage isn't enough. I think we all look
to the past and find parts of it that we cherish and would love to revisit.
Especially when we are in the midst of difficult times. I think Clarissa
wanted Richard to embrace life even though he was sick, and he was'nt
cooperating. As a wife and parent, I find myself wanting my husband and
children to see things from my perspective instead of their own at times. I
think that is what Clarrissa was doing. She wanted Richard to be the happy,
fun-loving person from their youth. It was less painful for her that way.
Richard was beginning to embrace death as a release and escape from the pain
and the disease, even his sense of failure. Clarissa wasn't ready to deal
with losing him in such a final way. She had already 'lost him' to a man,
now she would lose him to this disease that she was so terrified would claim
her, too. That is part of the reason she wrestled with the idea of kissing
him. I think in her mind, it was also embracing death. She wasn't that
unhappy, isolated, misunderstood. She lives on.
Rita
It is time to tie up our discussion of "The Hours" by Michael Cunningham.
Thanks to all who participated in the discussion. Please take a moment to rate
the novel on a scale of 1 (hated it) to 5 (loved it) and let everyone know your
final thoughts before we move on to the next selection.
The book to be discussed in February is "Nickel and Dimed: on (Not) Getting By
in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
Book Description from Amazon:
Millions of Americans work for poverty-level wages, and one day Barbara
Ehrenreich decided to join them. She was inspired in part by the rhetoric
surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life.
But how can anyone survive, let alone prosper, on $6 to $7 an hour? To find
out, Ehrenreich moved from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, taking the cheapest
lodgings available and accepting work as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner,
nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart salesperson. She soon discovered that even
the "lowliest" occupations require exhausting mental and physical efforts. And
one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors.
Nickel and Dimed reveals low-wage America in all its tenacity, anxiety, and
surprising generosity -- a land of Big Boxes, fast food, and a thousand
desperate strategies for survival. Instantly acclaimed for its insight, humor,
and passion, this book is changing the way America perceives its working poor.
I was impressed with the author's portrayal of the human mind. I was given
required reading in college which also let us glimpse into the sad world of
depression, neglect, etc. This book was depressing, but also helped me to
better understand how people think and survive - or not. I was also impressed
with the fact that actions cause effects - sometimes long down the road of life.
Good rating even though I cannot say I enjoyed reading the book.
Based on the fact that the author said so much with so little text.....I
give it a 5. I do want to read it again. Soon
Rita
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Welcome to the February Book Clique discussion of "Nickel and Dimed: on (NOT)
Getting By in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
Here's a few questions to get the discussion going:
What do you think of Ehrenreich's representation of the businesses in which she
participates? Are her reports fair? Accurate? Biased? What makes her account
credible or questionable in your view? What are the limits of her research or
what information did you feel was missing in her account?
Have you or others you know worked in the service industries described in Nickel
and Dimed? How do the stories you know or have heard compare to Ehrenreich's
accounts?
Sarah
A couple questions to get the discussion going:
The workers in Nickel and Dimed received almost no benefits - no overtime pay,
no retirement funds, and no health insurance. Is this fair? How can this be
legal? Do you think an increase in salary would redress the lack of benefits,
or is this a completely seperate problem?
Were your perceptions of blue-collar Americans transformed or reinforced by
Nickel and Dimed? Have your notions of poverty and prosperity changed since
reading the book? What about your own treatment of waiters, maids and
salespeople?
This book takes place in 1998-2000, a time of great prosperity in the US. How
do you think Ehrenreich's experience would be different in today's economy?
Sarah
I’m only about half way through the book, but here’s my take so far:
I appreciate her trying to expose how difficult it is for the “unskilled” to
live on minimum wage. However, I feel that she in no way can truly understand
just how difficult it truly is. She pretty much got to make her own rules (1)
she must have a car, (2) if the threat of going hungry is there, she could just
break out her ATM card and “cheat”. There was no threat of truly having to
make ends meet the desperation behind having to hold a job where you have no
respect, where you suffer harassment or discrimination or else it’s the
homeless shelter or sleeping in your car. She has a nice bank account to fall
back on.
She glibly passes up, by not even considering, positions of hotel front desk
clerk and telemarketer. There was a time in my life that I would have been
very happy to get a telemarketing or hotel clerk job and this was after four
years of college and graduate school!
I can certainly empathize with her stint as a waitress. I worked at a Shoney’s
for a little over two weeks when I was in high school. This was the hardest
job I have ever done!
I could do without her religious musings… At times, she seemed to be mocking
Christianity (she did stated that she was an atheist). I don’t see where her
religious musings fit in to her research and the point of this book.
She’s rather a literary snob, turning up her nose at Grisham, who, according to
her, is at the “low end of the literary spectrum.”
After having worked for a cleaning service, she finds the idea of hiring a
cleaning person/service repugnant. I’m not so sure I agree with this. Of
course I can’t afford to hire a cleaning service, but the idea of being able to
pay someone to help me clean my house is very appealing. After working a full
day and commuting, I have little energy to spend on housework.
I just read an article from the Columbia Journalism Review (Nov/Dec 2003) that
discusses Ehrenreich's life and works.
It began by referencing an advertisement from Ehrenreich critics that referred
to her as a "radical socialist" and to this book as "a classic Marxist rant"
that "mounts an all-out assault on Christians, conservatives and capitalism."
Whew! That seems a bit harsh! What do you think?
Sarah
Ehrenreich is white and middle class. She asserts that her experience would
have been radically different had she been a person of color or a single
parent. Do you think discrimination shaped her story? In what ways?
After reading Nickel and Dimed, do you think that having a job - any job - is
better than no job at all? Did this book make you feel angry? Better
informed? Relieved that someone has finally described your experience?
Galvanized to do something?
Just some points to ponder...
Sarah
I read this book some time ago and was glad to see that it was on the list
to be read by Book Clique, I wanted to see what others had to say about it.
I have held many of the jobs that Ehrenreich writes about and I am still
very good friends with people who still hold these jobs and depend on them
to make a "living", if indeed we can call it that. The employment situation
in our country is completely reprehensible. We read front page stories in
the NY Times about the labor practices of Wal-Mart and continue to shop
there and at Sam's Club. I personally took the time to ask a group of
employees on break outside of our local Wal-Mart if any of the stories about
lock-ins and being forced to work late (with and without pay) and I learned
that some had heard of other employees being treated that way and others had
been treated that way themselves. I thanked them for their time, returned to
my car and took my business elsewhere. I cancelled my Sam's Club membership
the same day and returned my card to the corporate office along with a long
letter of explanation of why, after almost 15 years of membership, I was
doing so. Did it do any good? Who knows, but I can feel better about knowing
that I am not supporting a corporation that so severely mistreats its
employees.
My first reading of this book coincided with an uproar about its inclusion
on a required reading list for incoming freshmen. I'll paste the response
that I originally posted elsewhere here:
*snip* The yearly drama of the incoming reading list at UNC-Chapel Hill.
This year people are pissed that students are being asked to read Nickel and
Dimed. I am just finishing this book and I, too, am pissed. Not because it
is leftist or anti-capitalistic but because Barbara Ehrenreich is herself
"clueless," there are points throughout the book when she is downright
racist and classist. I say she may be clueless because she seems to be
trying to lighten the depressing situation of the working class poor. The
only problem is that her jokes are often at the expense of the poor and
often colored (as in people of color, not as in African American) folk.
I am also disturbed that Ehrenreich's idea of submersive, investigative
journalism includes allowing herself the luxury of going to the doctor and
buying medication for a rash when her co-workers work on broken appendages
because they have no medical insurance. She plops down huge security
deposits for apartments while the WCP folk around her sleep in cars or seedy
motels while trying to save up for a security deposit. I won't go on and on
because I don't want to spoil it for you, but one of my biggest problems
with Nickel and Dimed was the fact that when the going gets tough Ehrenreich
gets going (literally). She has the luxury of walking away from a bad
situation when she chooses. *snip*
sb
Hi Everyone:
Sorry to be getting to this late. Please rate "Nickel and Dimed" on a scale from
1 (hated it) to 5 (loved it).
Thanks for joining me in this discussion.
The March Discussion is "House of Sand and Fog" by Andre Dubus III.
Sarah
I have been backed up on my reading, and just got the book. Maybe, I can
review it later?
I am a tutor and I have to read for the kids I work with, don't always have
time to read for myself. Aisha
I, too, just got the book on Monday. But as of last night I'm around 2/3 of
the way through it. I have some mixed feelings about this book... in a
nutshell, it's a good premise--the title is what grabbed me; I can certainly
relate to not quite getting by!--on the other hand, I just couldn't get over
some of Ehrnreich's arrogance when she comes back to her insistence on
certain "necessities" like living alone, always having a vehicle of her own,
and a healthy wad of "start-up" and "emergency" cash. What luxuries!! Not to
mention the psychological assurance that, for her, this experience is only
temporary. That goes a long way toward being able to cope with a lot of
garbage that would otherwise paint a much more accurate picture of the
hopelessness many of us face when ends just aren't gonna meet this month. I
sure wish I had an other life to run and hide in when things got a little
hairy in the $7/hour world!
This book makes me alternately mad and pensive. But I'm not so much mad at the
working and living conditions that Ehrnreich tries to bring to light. I'm
already well aware of those. It's her methods and sustained arrogance (or
something to that effect--can't quite find the words for it yet) that keep
getting in the way of what could have been a much more compelling story for
me. While, like I said, I'm not finished reading yet, I'm starting to fear
that the book will offer no solutions. Not that there are any easy ones, and
also not that I'll probably have a whole lot of respect for
Ehrenreich's "solutions" to the problem, because she just keeps ticking me off
throughout the book.
Okay, a rating? *sigh* I don't know... I forgot if we're talking 4 or 5 stars,
so let's put it smack dab in the middle. It was a good choice for a Book
Clique reading, and maybe it's good that it got me fuming! ;) --Natalee
I thought of the recent book selection Nickel and Dimed when I traveled to
Kansas City and stayed a hotel. I do believe it will take a long time for me to
see a hotel/motel room the same after reading that book. My comfort level
has dropped tremendously. Once again proving that ignorance was bliss.
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Hello!
This month's Bookclique selection is "House of Sand and Fog" by Andre Dubus
III. This is the story about the bitter battle over the wrongfull sale of a
house and a struggle for life and dignity as our three main characters define
it.
What are your thoughts on the characters, Kathy, Lester, and Colonel Behrani?
Did you identify or empathize with one more than another? Who do you think was
the rightfull owner of the house?
Sherri
So far we've heard from no one about the House of Sand and Fog. Has anyone read
it? Any comments at all?
Sherri
Yes, I read it several months ago. Quite the topic of discussion in our
office. It drove me daffy to have each chapter about a different character
without identifying the character quickly. I do understand that is a popular
method of writing, but this one was hard.
The suspense was on the high end of the scale towards the end!
I have read the book! I was expecting it to last me a week or so but once I
started reading it, I didn't want to put it down. Ended up reading it in less
than a week-end. Best book I've read in a while. I never know whether to write
so early as I don't want to spoil the book for those who haven't finished it
yet. (That has happened to me a couple of times.) So will write more about my
impressions later.
Yes, I read the book quite a while ago. Actually when it was on Oprah's list.
I attended the book show before that and this was the book she handed out at
that time. It was quite interesting. I have read several books where each
chapter is about a different person, usually announced before, but this time
you had to read to figure out who was talking. I was involved in each person's
story as they wanted the house. It went quite fast, and I'm sure I missed some
details. Look forward to more discussion.
Hello,
Did anyone see the movie? What did you think?
Sherri McGlothlin
If this novel were a true story, I can imagine an article appearing in the
newspaper entitled: DISPUTE OVER OWNERSHIP OF HOUSE RESULTS IN TRAGEDY FOR ALL
CONCERNED. I would read a brief description of each one involved and details
about the dispute over a house and probably think that it was all a needless
tragedy. But Dubus has reminded me, in a powerful way, that every person has
his own individual background and silent inner dialogue that can cause him to
justify his actions - no matter how inappropriate others may judge them to be.
I ended up not liking any of the main characters - Col. Behrani, Nadi, Kathy
or Lester even though I did understand each one's "individual background and
silent inner dialogue" ( because of Dubus' wonderful way with words, of course).
It was almost more than I could take when Lester shouted: "Hold it! Wait! and
then he and Col Behrani had to watch that scene involving Esmail unfold.
Personally I liked the format of the book and didn't find it distracting to
have to think through quickly which character the first few lines of each
new section was referring to.
I liked this book!!!
In a message dated 3/16/2004 4:53:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bookclique@tcpl.lib.in.us writes:
> . Personally I liked the format of the book and didn't find it distracting
> to have to think through quickly which character the first few lines of each
> new section was referring to.
ouch
I read the book some time ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't have any
trouble with the chapters written as they were; each about a different
character.
What a totally different culture than what I'm familiar with! The author did a
great job fleshing out each character and also the background action. Could
anyone else almost smell dinner cooking?!
Yes! This was such a visual book. I had such a clear picture in my head of
everything. I was afraid when the movie came out that the director's vision and
mine would be at odds, but it was so just like I'd imagined it.
I'm sure that you all know this was an Oprah book and I'm sure that at this late
date in our discussion I'm not giving anything away by revealing that in the end
Colonal Behrani killed his wife then himself. On the day that Oprah's club
discussed this book they were very devided as to whether he killed his wife out
of compassion or whether he was just a coward. What do you think?
I think the colonel killed his wife because he felt he had no choice. His
'plan' had failed and he saw a future of oppression for himself. His wife
had no ability to cope with life without him, so he killed her. He then
took his own life to avoid being sent to a US prison for killing Kathy. (I
think he believed that he did kill her.)
The whole book sent me back and forth with sympathy and then disgust for the
whole cast of characters. I guess the bottom line for me is that we are
products of our individual life experiences. We can make choices, but we
all too often fall back on similar experiences from the past to guide us.
Often with very similar results. We become self-perpetuating in our life
experiences.
Good read..........not sure I would ever read it again.
Rita
Before we move on to the April discussion of "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel,
please take a moment to rate "The House of Sand and Fog" on a scale of 1
(hated it) to 5 (loved it).
Thank you.
Here's a teaser for "Life of Pi."
The precocious son of a zookeeper, 16-year-old Pi Patel is raised in Pondicherry
India, where he tries on various faiths for size, attracting "religions the way
a dog attracts fleas." Planning a move to Canada, his father packs up the family
and their menagerie and they hitch a ride on an enormous freighter. After a
harrowing shipwreck, Pi finds himself adrift in the Pacific Ocean, trapped
on a 26-foot lifeboat with a wounded zebra, a spotted hyena, a seasick orangutan
and a 450-pound Bengal tiger named Richard Parker.
I didn't have much time to reread the book. It was very good and I would rate
it a 4. The fiction group that meets at the library on the first Tuesday of
each month is planning to read this same book for the June 1st meeting at 7:00
p.m. Please come and join us.
I'd give it a 3.5
Not my favorite book in the whole world, not my least favorite. The writing
style reminded me a bit of "Hours". Probably brought out a lot of attitudes
about the Middle East. Certainly brought out an attitude I have about
people who are given things (Like a house) that they didn't earn or didn't
know how to be responsible for.
I didn't have the time to read it as yet. Aisha
A definite 5 in my book! I couldn't decide why the colonel killed his wife
-perhaps he wanted the three of them to be together in the "afterlife". I think
a kind of insanity took him over at that point.
I am so glad this book was picked for March!
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I hope everyone has had a chance to get started on the book. I'll warn you, it
starts a bit slow, but picks up about 1/3 of the way through and flies by!
Just hang in there if you are just starting - it is worth the read.
Here's a bit about Yann Martel, followed by a couple questions to get the
discussion rolling.
Yann Martel was born in Spain in 1963. His parents served as diplomats and
traveled the world, with Martel growing up in such places as Alaska, Costa
Rica, France, and Mexico. In addition to his work as a diplomat, Martel's
father was also a poet and writer whose work helped launch Yann into his own
career writing novels.
Martell eventually attended Trent University, where he studied philosophy and
began to write. By age 27 he had taken up writing as his full-time job, earning
his living from it and traveling when able. He has spent time in Iran, Turkey,
Ecuador, Peru, and India, including a six month stint in southern India while
doing research for the novel that would become Life of Pi.
His writing includes a collection of short stories, The Facts Behind Helsinki
Roccamatios and Other Stories, as well as a novel called Self, neither of which
created any critical or popular interest and which Martel himself has described
as "bad".
It was in preparing for a new novel to follow Self that Martel traveled to
India, but he found that his new project simply fizzled out and it was there
that he remembered an intriguing premise he had once come across in the review
of a book by the Brazilian writer Moacyr Scliar: a small boy trapped in a
lifeboat with a black panther. The idea felt so right for a book that Martel
abandoned his previous project and spent the next months interviewing
zookeepers and animal experts in Southern India and in reading survival stories
and religious texts. The result was his second novel, Life of Pi, which
appeared in 2001 and became a runaway bestseller of a novel. The book managed
to win the Booker Prize and then became entangled in a debate over inspiration
and plagiarism
[http://books.guardian.co.uk/bookerprize2002/story/0,12350,836092,00.html] that
only helped to turn Martel into a literary celebrity.
He currently lives in Berlin, where his parents reside, both of whom are now
literary translators and are currently translating Life of Pi into French.
Source: Novelist
Pondicherry is described as an anomaly, the former capital of what was once
French India. In terms of storytelling, what makes this town an appropriate
choice for Pi's upbringing?
Pi's full name, Piscine Molitor Patel, was inspired by a Parisian swimming pool
that "the gods would have delighted to swim in." The shortened form referes to
the ratio of a circle's circumference divided by its diameter. What is the
significance of Pi's unusual name?
One reviewer said the novel contains hints of The Old Man and the Sea, and Pi
himself measures his experience in relation to history's most famous
castaways. Considering that Pi's shipwreck is the first to focus on a boy and
his tiger, how does Life of Pi compare to other maritime novels and films?
What do you think?
Sarah
Yes, It was slow to get started... and I really enjoyed the discussion of
religions. I find it fascinating that Pi can live as a devout Catholic, Hindu,
and Muslim - all at once. I feel he gets to the heart of the matter, when he
states that he "just wants to love God."
I am having a really hard time making it over what I call the "death scenes."
I actually started the book some time ago, but put it down at the "goat" scene
at the zoo. I picked it back up again for Bookclique... But I have no desire
to read beyond the zebra, while still alive, getting its leg knawed off by a
hyenna. Did any of you also have this reaction?
Why should I finish the book? I think I've given it a good faith effort, tried
it twice, but been turned off both times.
Sarah B.
I am still on the waiting list at the library for the book. There are alot of
people ahead of me. Aisha
Sorry to circumvent discussion of Life of Pi in terms of maritime novels and
symbolic significance, but I read the book in one sitting, hoping to make
it to a book discussion at my local library the next day. Perhaps it made a
difference to get slammed with all of it at once, but this is what happened to
me, the agnostic, the perfectionist, the Fact-Seeker: I enthusiastically read
the tiger-in-the-lifeboat story, laughing, lamenting, recoiling and rejoicing.
Then I read the nasty-brutish-people-killing-each-other part, which was more
likely (within the confines of the story) the actual truth.
And for the first time in my life, I said, "to hell with this. I'm sticking
with the better story." I suddenly GOT IT. That sometimes what resonates in
the soul is much more important than what resonates in the mind.
Extrapolating further, if this was Martel's point then he is also telling us
that seeking God is not about extracting the Facts, it's about listening to
the heart, about telling yourself the story that connects most deeply and
sings most true, that the facts might not matter even if you knew them.
One review said that Life of Pi will make you believe in God. No ... Life of
Pi will LET you believe in God, even if you've always said "I Don't Know" in
fear of being wrong.
-- a funny "maritime" coincidence: thematically speaking, more than Hemingway
this book reminded me of Big Fish.
Excellent point! We already believe many difficult, non-intuitive,
extraordinary things. Belief in a story is not simply a matter of that
story's making sense. It's called faith.
In chapter 23, Pi sparks a lively debate when all three of his spiritual
advisors try to claim him. At the heart of this confrontation is Pi's
insistence that he cannot accept an exclusively Hindu, Christian, or Muslim
faith; he can only be content with all three.
What do you think Pi is seeking that can solely be attained by this
apparent contradiction?
What do you make of Pi's assertion at the beginning of chapter 16 that we
are all "in limbo, without religion, until some figure introduces us to God"?
Do you think that Pi's piousness was a response to his father's atheism?
What about his apparent disdain for agnostics?
What's in a name? Are any of you familiar with another "Richard Parker"?
I wasn't until I started researching this book. Here's what I found:
In an interview (http://www.canongate.net/list/glp.taf?_n=2) at Canongate Martel
states that the choice of name for Richard Parker was no coincidence:'Richard
Parker was a sailor boy who was killed and eaten by Captain Dudley and the other
two survivors of the sinking of the Mignonette, a yacht that was on its way to
Australia. The time is the 1870s if my memory serves me right. The Mignonette
sank and after surviving 16 days in a dingy, the captain and his two mates
sliced Richard Parker up and ate him. 'This, in itself, would not make R.P.
memorable. Cannibalism in the high seas was quite common at the time.
The reason Richard Parker (or, more accurately, the "case of the Mignonette")
has endured is that upon their return to England, the survivors (they were
rescured by a Swedish ship) were tried for murder, a first. Up till then,
murder committed under duress, because of extreme necessity, was informally
accepted as excusable. But the powers-that-be decided to examine the question
more closely. And so the case of the Mignonette went all the way to the Lords
and set a legal precedent. The three were tried and found guilty of murder.
'To this day, the only acceptable excuse for murder is self-defense. Murder
committed in extreme circumstances for the sake of sustaining life remains
illegal - though those who commit it usually get light sentences. The case
of the Mignotte is the standard legal rebuttal for those who would invoke
such a defence. '
ALSO:
'Thirty or forty years earlier, Edgar Allan Poe published his one effort at
a novel, an awful work entitled the
Adventures of Arthur Gordon Pym. If Poe hadn't written it, it would have
vanished without a trace. In it, Pym and a friend set sail from Nantucket.
Their boat overturns and they survive several days on the hull with a third
person. But the hull of a boat is a tough place to be, so Pym and Co. eat
the third man. His name is... Richard Parker.
Sarah
Thanks to all who joined in the April discussion of "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel.
Please take a moment to post any final thoughts regarding the book and rate it
on a scale of 1 (hated it) to 5 (loved it and am recommending it to all my
friends!).
The May book to be discussed is "Outlander" by Diana Gabaldon. Please join us.
I had to wait quite awhile to get the book at the library - just finished
reading it. What a unique ending!!
Think I will be pondering this book for quite awhile. There were many places
in the story line where I just had to grimace and MAKE myself go on reading.
But I thank you for selecting the book - wouldn't have read it otherwise.
Thanks for the info about "other" Richard Parkers. Even as I write this I am
feeling "Yuck" as I think of certain passages even though they were germane to
the overall story. I would give it a 4. I don't think I would read it again
though.
I will definitely not read it again, but I will remember it for a good long
while! I rate it a 2.
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First off, Hello to everyone.
My name is Joy Mcbride and I am the moderater for this month's selection
Outlander by Diana Gabadon.
Although this book seems to be from the romance genre, the story is much
deeper than your typical romance.
Without going into to much detail, the story includes time travel, lots of
historically accurate details and a very unusual confrontation between two of
the male characters.
If you enjoy this book, she has written several others that follow the same
group of characters.
Here are a few questions to keep in mind as you read this book:
Is Claire's character believable? What do you like or dislike about her?
How do you feel about Frank Randall?
When Frank sees a "ghost" looking at Claire's window, he suspects she might
have been unfaithful to him during the war. Do you think she was? Do you think
Frank was unfaithful to Claire during the war?
Do you think that Claire's interaction with Black Jack Randall effects her
relationship with her husband, Frank Randall?
What do you think of the brothers Colum and Dougal? How do you feel about the
handicapp that Colum suffers from?
What are your feelings for Jamie? Did these feelings change after the "beating
scene?"
How do you feel about Claire's leaving of Jamie at the prison and it's
subsequent scenes?
Would you have traveled back to your own time or stayed?
Here is a little useful information about the author that you may not know.
Diana Gabaldon has a B.S. in Zoology and a Masters in Marine Biology and a
Ph. D in Ecology.
As far as writing I quote from her website,
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~gatti/gabaldon/faq/personal.html#abouttheauthor,
"From the late 70's to the early 90's, I wrote anything anybody would pay me
for. This ranged from articles on how to clean a longhorn cow's skull for
living-room decoration, to manuals on elementary math instruction on the Apple
II (written for the State of Arizona), to a slew of software reviews and
application articles done for the computer press--BYTE, Infoworld, PC Magazine,
etc.-- to documentation for private software developers.
I hope you enjoyed the book as much I did.
Sincerely
Joy Mcbride Library Aide at the Campus Branch of the Tippecanoe County Library
I was surprised to see that this month's selection is one of my favorite
books! I'm in the process of rereading it now. The time travel theme
fascinates me. If we had access to a time machine, my husband and I would have
to split up. He would want to go 300 years into the future to see what happens,
while I would want to go 300 years into the past to experience how they lived.
I liked how the author used homely details to bring the 18th century to life.
One example is when Jamie's sister talks about how she enjoys reading a good
novel, since it gives her something to think about when she's working. (I don't
remember if this was actually in Outlander or in one of the sequels, which I've
also read.) Who knew they had escapist fiction back then? I guess I thought
Dickens invented it.
I look forward to hearing others' reactions.
Jean
The month is coming to a close so please give us your rating of Outlander
from 1 to 5.
Coming up next is an urban fantasy about the American dream: American Gods
by Neil Gaiman.
In July we jump into the comedic detective work of The No. 1 Ladies Detective
Agency by R.A. Macall Smith and in August we find out what all the controversy
is about in The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown.
rating on Outlander!!!
It is one of the best books I have ever ever read...
A 5 in my opinion.
I was in Pittsburgh back in 1993, and the girl at the restaurant cashier desk
was reading Outlander...She told me it was about time travel, a little witch
craft and a wonderful thinking woman's romance story....
I ran out and got the book and got hooked on the series.
I hope everyone enjoyed it.
I enjoyed this book! I'm not into the romance genre, but found the
historical details fun. The second half was harder to believe, but still fun
to read. Easy for me to get into the book and setting.
Thanks for recommending it.
I give it a 3 +. The time travel concept was intriguing, but there were too
many plot machinations about keeping the hero and heroine apart, then together,
then apart, etc. This book needed a good editor!
I rate it a 5. There were times when the romance genre was a little much
(for me) but the characters were so well drawn and the history so interesting
that I hated to put it down. ( I found myself wanting to use verra and didna
in my conversations with friends). I hated the beating scene but finally
rationalized it went with the 18th century setting and I guess his vow made
later while holding her dagger was better than nothing. Still it bothered me.
It was a verra good choice for the book club. Thanks.
I will also give Outlander a 5. One of my favorites. I'm glad so many in
the club enjoyed it, and I think I'll go back and reread a couple of sequels as
well.
Jean
I would rate Outlander a very high 5. Scottish history has always intrigued
me. The characters were so well formed that I came to know them in a very
personal way. Listening to this book on tape made it especially good. The
narrator, Davina Porter, speaks with a wonderful Scottish brogue which brought
the time and place even closer to me. I plan to enjoy the sequel to this book
on tape as well.
Nannette
wow, I didn't think of listening to an accented tape! what a wonderful idea
- thanks
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Welcome to the June discussion of "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman.
Gaiman is mainly known for his ground breaking graphic novels. In this
novel he moves away from the illustrations but his quick witted writing
creates the images in your head anyway.
Amazon.com offers up this review of the book:
Amazon.com's Best of 2001
American Gods is Neil Gaiman's best and most ambitious novel yet, a scary,
strange, and hallucinogenic road-trip story wrapped around a deep
examination of the American spirit. Gaiman tackles everything from the
onslaught of the information age to the meaning of death, but he doesn't
sacrifice the razor-sharp plotting and narrative style he's been delivering
since his Sandman days.
Shadow gets out of prison early when his wife is killed in a car crash. At
a loss, he takes up with a mysterious character called Wednesday, who is
much more than he appears. In fact, Wednesday is an old god, once known as
Odin the All-father, who is roaming America rounding up his forgotten
fellows in preparation for an epic battle against the upstart deities of
the Internet, credit cards, television, and all that is wired. Shadow
agrees to help Wednesday, and they whirl through a psycho-spiritual storm
that becomes all too real in its manifestations. For instance, Shadow's
dead wife Laura keeps showing up, and not just as a ghost--the difficulty
of their continuing relationship is by turns grim and darkly funny, just
like the rest of the book.
Armed only with some coin tricks and a sense of purpose, Shadow travels
through, around, and underneath the visible surface of things, digging up
all the powerful myths Americans brought with them in their journeys to
this land as well as the ones that were already here. Shadow's road story
is the heart of the novel, and it's here that Gaiman offers up the details
that make this such a cinematic book--the distinctly American foods and
diversions, the bizarre roadside attractions, the decrepit gods reduced to
shell games and prostitution. "This is a bad land for Gods," says Shadow.
More than a tourist in America, but not a native, Neil Gaiman offers an
outside-in and inside-out perspective on the soul and spirituality of the
country--our obsessions with money and power, our jumbled religious
heritage and its societal outcomes, and the millennial decisions we face
about what's real and what's not. --Therese Littleton
I have read 300 pages of American Gods and I think I am still alive and those
around me, but I am beginning to wonder. He is a great story teller. I am
wondering if he is "trying to find himself," as those of a generation ago used
to say.
How does this online bookclub work? June
That is a great insight into the book. I see the book as very similar to those
"finding yourself" journeys in classics like Kerouac's "On the Road". Shadow
is on a journey of discovery, both about himself and the unique cultural
mishmash that is America.
As to your question, this is how the club works. Everybody just sends in
their thoughts and comments on the book. Sometimes we have a lot of discussion
and sometimes hardly any, but at the least you are exposed each month to new
book that you may enjoy. We all get into ruts in our reading habits and this
club makes a point of selecting a wide variety of books from mystery to
non-fiction or even sci-fi and romance.
I read this book a couple years ago when it first came out. This is the type
of book that you want to read a second time, after you know the ending, because
you realize you missed so much the first time through. I remember that it won
the Bram Stoker Award for best horror and the Hugo and Locus Awards for best
science fiction and fantasy. What an amazing and surreal novel!
Sarah
I just finished reading American Gods and would like to read what others are
saying about it! Good but confusing story telling, I thought. June McKinniss
I am really behind in my bookreading and because I rely on the library I
don't always get the books on time. I am still waiting for American Gods. I did
want to say, I finally finished House of Sand and Fog, which was a prior
selection. It was a thought provoking and wonderful book. At times I couldn't
decide whose side to be on. Aisha
We have discussed how American Gods is a type of road trip, a journey of
the spirit. Now let's get into one of the central ideas of the book, the gods.
"There are new gods growing in America ... gods of credit card and freeway,
of Internet and telephone, of radio and hospital and television, gods of
plastic and of beeper and of neon."
How do you interpret this remark? Do you think there's any element of truth
to it? Should we feel sorry for the old forgotten gods? Are we yearning for
a simpler life?
>When I first saw the title, American Gods, I thought of a book I read a
>few years back, Invasion of Other Gods, by a California pastor, Dr.
...snip...
>rooms). Was the ride on the carousel in the House just a little
>additional fantasy, or do you think it was supposed to have a
>meaning? June M.
The carousel is what transported shadow to the meeting of the old gods. I
think I saw it as a return to innocence, to childhood. In many ways the old
gods represent the childhood of humanity. They are the old folk tales that
your grandmother brought over from the old country. Now that we are adults,
we no longer see the gods, but if we can forget and become children again,
maybe we can catch a glimpse of them.
* Some questions to ponder...
* Where is Shadow at the beginning of American Gods?
* Where is he at the end?
* Of the many characters he encounters along the way, which did you find
most memorable?
* What did you make of Shadow's obsession with coin tricks?
* How did you interpret his determination to participate in the vigil for
Wednesday?
It is that time again. Did you like this month's selection? Please rate American
Gods from a 1 to 5.
Next week we start off with the humorous mystery "The No. 1 Ladies Detective
Agency" by R.A. McCall Smith.
And then in August we look at the hidden mysteries of "The DaVinci Code" by
Dan Brown.
I found this an interesting read. I had trouble keeping with the story line
in the beginning until I decided to focus on the gods instead of the places.
Later it all made sense to me and I was hooked at the ending.
I had not given much thought to the various gods. The history behind them
was interesting. Now I can say thanks for the recommendation.
I would rate American Gods 3 because I found it confusing but an extremely
interesting way for an Englishman to pay his way around our states . I wonder
about our gods, too! I have already read The Ladies #1 Detective Agency and
loved it. It is fast absorbing reading and I would rate it a 5. I have also
read the DaVinci Code and also found it disturbing because of my religious
background. It is well written and has several churches discussing the fact
that it is fiction writing, so I guess it is worthwhile. Besides he has
made big bucks with it being on the best seller lists for months on end.
It would have to be a 4 or 5.
I couldn't get American Gods from the library, so I have to skip this one. I
did however read #1 Ladies Detective Agency, so I will respond to that one.
aisha
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Welcome to the July BookClique discussion of "The No. 1 Ladies' Detective
Agency" by Alexander McCall Smith.
As you are getting started reading, here is some info about the author:
Alexander McCall Smith was born in Zimbabwe (called Southern Rhodesia at the
time) and was educated there and in Scotland. He became a law professor in
Scotland, and it was in this role that he first returned to Africa to work in
Botswana, where he helped to set up a new law school at the University of
Botswana. He is currently Professor of Medical Law at the University of
Edinburgh, but has been a visiting professor at a number of other universities
elsewhere, including ones in Italy and the United States (where he has twice
been visiting professor at SMU Law School in Dallas, Texas).
In addition to his university work, he is the vice-chairman of the Human
Genetics Commission of the UK, the chairman of the British Medical Journal
Ethics Committee, and a member of the International Bioethics Commission of
UNESCO.
Over the past twenty years, Smith has written more than fifty books, including
specialist academic titles, short story collections, and a number of immensely
popular children's books. In 1998, McCall Smith's detective novel, The No. 1
Ladies' Detective Agency, was published and received two Booker Judge's Special
Recommendations. The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series now numbers a total
of four books (he is working on the fifth) and has been optioned for feature
film. The series has been enthusiastically received throughout the world, and
foreign language editions will be appearing in numerous countries.
Three of the books in the series, The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency; Tears of
the Giraffe; and Morality for Beautiful Girls, have recently been published by
Anchor Books. The fourth, The Kalahari Typing school for Men will be published
by Pantheon in April 2003.
McCall Smith has recently finished the first book in a new series featuring a
lady detective, Isabel Dalhousie (Scottish father, American mother) the first
title of which, Crushed Strawberry, will be published in London next year.
Today Alexander McCall Smith lives in Edinburgh with his wife Elizabeth (an
Edinburgh doctor), their two daughters Lucy and Emily, and their cat Gordon.
His hobbies include playing wind instruments, and he is the co-founder of an
amateur orchestra called "The Really Terrible Orchestra" in which he plays the
bassoon and his wife plays the flute.
Source: http://www.randomhouse.com/features/mccallsmith/about.html
Enjoy! And have a happy July 4th!
Sarah
I enjoyed that book so much, but had troubling locating it. Now I am sure
they are all out. When I tried to find more books by the same author, I had
trouble again. Are they under fiction and under Mc? June
I won't get into details of the story for those who haven't finished it yet,
but it was a very easy read. It was a sweet book billed as a mystery, but I
felt it was more about the culture of the country it takes place in. I loved the
characters portrayed. Mme.R. has problems with her fiance just as we do here
in America, etc. Will discuss more later. Has anyone read any of the other
books in the series? I have read all but the newest one. Aisha
Hi, June:
At TCPL we file this series in the mystery section, under McCall Smith. But
not all libraries may file them with mysteries. A lot of readers enjoy this
series because of the setting and characters - not the mystery.
Do you feel the mystery enough of a "mystery" to file in the mystery section?
Or do you feel that, if filed with regular fiction, it would gain a larger
reader following?
Sarah
I think they are enough of a mystery. Yet, I read it for the story about the
country as well. I enjoyed the characters as well as the story. Mrs. R did
a good job of improving her lot etc.
I think if they billed #1 Ladies Detective Agency and the others in the
series as general fiction, it would gain more attention. They are really
mysteries in my opinion.Aisha
My opinion would under fiction rather than mystery--for what it's worth....
June
I would agree. The problems she solves aren't all that mysterious - not when
Mma R. applies her excellent common sense to them and solves them relatively
quickly. I enjoyed this book a lot, more for the descriptions of how life
works in Botswana and especially how Precious' mind works than for the "mystery"
part. What a wonderful selection!
Jean
Yes, they are under "McCall Smith, R. A." There's also a cross-reference
under "Smith, Alexander McCall."
Sharon
Hi all,
We shelve these under mysteries at our library. I think that, although
these are not mysteries in the tone of Anne Perry or the Guido Brunetti
mystery series, they do revolve around a detective agency. If you've
read the entire series, you probably already know that the "mysteries"
get less as the series goes on, but the No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency
still figures prominently in the novels. The author uses the agency to
highlight some of the social problems as well as being a central focus
for Mma Ramotswe and her assistant.
When I'm doing Reader's Advisory with patrons who are mystery readers, I
just always make it a point to tell them about the amount of mystery
actually involved and mention the other attributes of the series
(characters, setting, etc.) So far, all the mystery readers who have
decided to give this a try have come back to tell me how much they've
loved it. If the books seem a good fit for the patron in other ways, and
if we continue to mention these other attributes to patrons, I think
mystery readers would more than likely enjoy this series.
Karen Dini
Assistant Head, Adult Services Department
Addison Public Library
Unlike most other mysteries, in this novel Mma Ramotswe solves a number of
small crimes, rather than a single major one. How does this affect the
narrative pacing of the novel? By what means does the author sustain the
reader's interest, in the absence of the kind of tension, violence, and
suspense that drive most mysteries?
I thought this novel was really good as are the rest in the series. I really
didn't miss the blood and gore of some mysteries. I enjoyed reading about the
culture of the country and the lives of the characters. It kept me reading as
a good fictional book would. Aisha
I thought this book was less about a mystery and more about a women's
determination and spirit. It was almost as though the mysteries were thrown
in there to give us an idea of her business and how she dealt with the people
involved in them; which spoke to her character. Mma R was a remarkable lady and
how she recovered from some very sad events in her life, and learned to trust
and love again, I thought was the real core of the book. I enjoyed the book,
thanks for the recommendation!
I did a bit of research on Botswana - mostly because I was curious, but I
thought you may also be interested.
Enjoy,
Sarah
From the CIA World Factbook:
Formerly the British protectorate of Bechuanaland, Botswana adopted its new
name upon independence in 1966 (under President Seretse Khama). Four decades
of uninterrupted civilian leadership, progressive social policies, and
significant capital investment have created one of the most dynamic economies
in Africa. Mineral extraction, principally diamond mining, dominates economic
activity, though tourism is a growing sector due to the country's conservation
practices and extensive nature preserves. Botswana has the world's highest
known rate of HIV/AIDS infection, but also one of Africa's most progressive
and comprehensive programs for dealing with the disease.
English is the official language, but Setswana is also spoken.
Economic Overview: Botswana has maintained one of the world's highest growth
rates since independence in 1966. Through fiscal discipline and sound
management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries
in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of $8,800 in 2003.
Two major investment services rank Botswana as the best credit risk in Africa.
Diamond mining has fueled much of the expansion and currently accounts for more
than one-third of GDP and for nine-tenths of export earnings. Tourism,
subsistence farming, and cattle raising are other key sectors. On the downside,
the government must deal with high rates of unemployment and poverty.
Unemployment officially is 21%, but unofficial estimates place it closer to 40%.
HIV/AIDS infection rates are the highest in the world and threaten Botswana's
impressive economic gains. Long-term prospects are overshadowed by the expected
leveling off in diamond mining production.
I really enjoyed the sense of place: Mochudi, a small town on the edge of
the Kalahari, the diamond mines of South Africa ... Botswana becomes a
vivid "character." Does anyone know (from the history outlined in the
novel) what year we are reading about? It seems very modern, but so far
I've not come across an historical reference that I am familiar with (I'm
not quite finished with the book, though.)
Also, I stumbled across this on the A.M-Smith website. It's a
pronunciation guide to "Mma" and "Rra". Of course, I had been pronouncing
"Mma" like "mama" Ramotswe. :-)
Mma is the term used to address a woman, and may be placed before her name.
It is pronounced "ma" (with a long a).
Rra is the rough equivalent of "mister". It is pronounced "rar", but with a
slight rolling of the second r.
(from http://www.randomhouse.com/features/mccallsmith/features_glossary.html)
Sarah
when I went to search for more books by the same author the shelf was
bare...June
I thought it was a very good book. I kept reading as I wanted to see what
would happen to her. The little mysteries added to the story sand kept you
interested. But I felt it just showed us how she worked with the people in
her life and solved her problems. Good series, and I look forward to reading
the next series that he writes.
Get on the waiting list for the talking book versions of these stories.
Even if you have to wait a month, they're worth the wait. The reader is
one of the best!
thanks, Sarah; appreciated your research. June
RE: book on tape - thanks for the tip. I have two friends who have lost so
much eyesight they can no longer drive who would appreciate them, too.
I agree completely. The lady reading the audio book included the proper
pronunciations and added much "color" to the book. This was my first audio book
and I do love the concept -- esp. this particular book. Thanks to whomever
recommended this one! I loved it and I intend to read more of this author's
work.
I think this novel really pointed out the dichotomous role of women in Africa.
On one hand, you have Mma Ramotswe: unmarried, owning her own business, pretty
much able to do anything she pleases. On the other hand, you have the married
women mentioned, that put up with their husbands infidelities as “that’s just
the way men are” even Mma Ramotswe’s husband initially raped her and beat her
before he left her. From the numerous times it came up in the novel, it
appears that married life in Botswana is not too “happily ever after.”
This brings to my mind news from the recent conference on AIDS. Botswana has
the highest known HIV/AIDS rate of infection in the world (CIA World
Factbook). I read a news report that stated that in southern Africa 75% of HIV
positive youth are female (ages 15-24) and that the ABC strategy (Abstain, Be
Faithful, Use a Condom) was not working for two main reasons:
1)One reason is the "not only widespread, but widely accepted and endorsed"
prevalence of rape and sexual violence.
2)In the context of men growing up believing masculinity means having plenty of
sexual partners, being faithful to your husband does not prevent infection.
These were both reflected in the novel and, though not named specifically in
this book, I do believe that AIDS was referred to in regards to a woman who had
a disease… you know the one (or something like that I can’t remember who was
talking to Mma Ramotswe and made the reference). Did you catch this reference?
What are your thoughts?
Sarah
Sarah:
I believe married life can be difficult no matter what country you live it.
It is especially difficult living in countries where the women has little or no
rights. Men can have many sexual partners and women are beaten,divorced,cast
out of their homes and communities. Women in these countries have to be
subservient to their husbands. I am glad Mma was able to start a new life and
that her father accepted her as she was. I had an adult student from Guyuana
who was forced to marry very young (13).Her husband was an alcoholic who beat
her. She tried to leave him and go home to her family and they brought her back
to him. Five children and many years later he passed on. Her children were
adults and she came with them to this country. She was also allowed very little
in the way of education. It is a tough world out there.
Aisha
Yes, I caught the reference to the disease and figured she must be talking
about AIDS. I was curious about how the people living there might refer to
this disease. It looks like it's mentioned only obliquely in conversation.
That's probably part of the problem: not wanting to face the situation
head-on.
Margy
On TV, I've seen a family that traded places with an African family recently.
The father enjoyed himself as "king" while the women did the work.
We've had missionaries at church who say that the men come from the bush to
town to work and if they are in the church, the church just has to look the
other way about the women he left behind in the bush. June
Yes, I think Precious was very lucky to have a father that truly loved her
and put her well-being first. He did not want her to marry Note - because of
the way he treated her. So why did she marry Note? It seems so out of
character for her to marry a physically (and sexually) abusive man.
I would enjoy the book on audio, too, and we are getting ready to travel by
car for several hundred miles and I need to find out how you go about getting
the audio books. June
Precious probably married Note because she was young and very attracted to
him.I can't remember was he a musician? ( I read this one or two years ago).
Sometimes love blinds us, it has happened in my own life. At least she succeeded
in rebuilding her life and still trusted men enough to get into another
relationship. Aisha
I think her marriage to Note matured her. She now cherishes her independence
and is set on remaining single. After several proposals of marriage, she still
refused to marry - yet she accepted Mr. Matekoni's proposal at the very end of
the novel. Did you think this ending appropriate?
Yes. I think it was appropriate. She needed to be in a relationship. I don't
feel her life will change too drastically. I read the other books(except for
the last one) and I see where her relationship has gone. Did you read any of
the others? I don't want to spoil anything for you. Aisha+
It's almost time to start the August discussion of Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code" -
but bef